Why didn't Saruman break Gandalf's staff on Orthanc as Gandalf broke Saruman's?

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In The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers after becoming Gandalf the White, Gandalf cast Saruman from the Order and the Council. He also got the power to break Saruman's staff, which was very powerful.
So when Saruman captured Gandalf the Grey on Orthanc, why didn't Saruman do the same? He meant to find the One Ring's location from Gandalf. He could have broken Gandalf's staff, thereby decreasing Gandalf's power.
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings gandalf saruman
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In The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers after becoming Gandalf the White, Gandalf cast Saruman from the Order and the Council. He also got the power to break Saruman's staff, which was very powerful.
So when Saruman captured Gandalf the Grey on Orthanc, why didn't Saruman do the same? He meant to find the One Ring's location from Gandalf. He could have broken Gandalf's staff, thereby decreasing Gandalf's power.
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings gandalf saruman
8
I always assumed he wanted to turn Gandalf to join his cause. If Gandalf would lose his wand, he wouldn't be as useful. I got nothing to back that up though.
– Mixxiphoid
2 days ago
@Mixxiphoid He could get the One Ring's location from him. That could be done without his staff.
– the-profile-that-was-promised
2 days ago
5
Do we have reason to believe that Saruman did not break or confiscate Gandalf's staff, and Gandalf just picked up a new one in Rivendell after his escape from the roof? There is also the question of Gandalf's sword, Glamdring; is he not carrying it when he has his encounter with Saruman? In the movie it is on his horse, which is not Shadowfax, so why doesn't Saruman now have Glamdring?
– Eric Lippert
2 days ago
Somewhat related scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/85706/…
– RedBaron
yesterday
@EricLippert Well, for one thing Gandalf couldn’t just pick up any old stick, because – as we all know – the staff chooses the wizard. (No idea about Glamdring.)
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
16 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
up vote
43
down vote
favorite
up vote
43
down vote
favorite
In The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers after becoming Gandalf the White, Gandalf cast Saruman from the Order and the Council. He also got the power to break Saruman's staff, which was very powerful.
So when Saruman captured Gandalf the Grey on Orthanc, why didn't Saruman do the same? He meant to find the One Ring's location from Gandalf. He could have broken Gandalf's staff, thereby decreasing Gandalf's power.
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings gandalf saruman
In The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers after becoming Gandalf the White, Gandalf cast Saruman from the Order and the Council. He also got the power to break Saruman's staff, which was very powerful.
So when Saruman captured Gandalf the Grey on Orthanc, why didn't Saruman do the same? He meant to find the One Ring's location from Gandalf. He could have broken Gandalf's staff, thereby decreasing Gandalf's power.
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings gandalf saruman
tolkiens-legendarium the-lord-of-the-rings gandalf saruman
edited 2 days ago


TheLethalCarrot
37.4k15203247
37.4k15203247
asked 2 days ago


the-profile-that-was-promised
5561411
5561411
8
I always assumed he wanted to turn Gandalf to join his cause. If Gandalf would lose his wand, he wouldn't be as useful. I got nothing to back that up though.
– Mixxiphoid
2 days ago
@Mixxiphoid He could get the One Ring's location from him. That could be done without his staff.
– the-profile-that-was-promised
2 days ago
5
Do we have reason to believe that Saruman did not break or confiscate Gandalf's staff, and Gandalf just picked up a new one in Rivendell after his escape from the roof? There is also the question of Gandalf's sword, Glamdring; is he not carrying it when he has his encounter with Saruman? In the movie it is on his horse, which is not Shadowfax, so why doesn't Saruman now have Glamdring?
– Eric Lippert
2 days ago
Somewhat related scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/85706/…
– RedBaron
yesterday
@EricLippert Well, for one thing Gandalf couldn’t just pick up any old stick, because – as we all know – the staff chooses the wizard. (No idea about Glamdring.)
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
16 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
8
I always assumed he wanted to turn Gandalf to join his cause. If Gandalf would lose his wand, he wouldn't be as useful. I got nothing to back that up though.
– Mixxiphoid
2 days ago
@Mixxiphoid He could get the One Ring's location from him. That could be done without his staff.
– the-profile-that-was-promised
2 days ago
5
Do we have reason to believe that Saruman did not break or confiscate Gandalf's staff, and Gandalf just picked up a new one in Rivendell after his escape from the roof? There is also the question of Gandalf's sword, Glamdring; is he not carrying it when he has his encounter with Saruman? In the movie it is on his horse, which is not Shadowfax, so why doesn't Saruman now have Glamdring?
– Eric Lippert
2 days ago
Somewhat related scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/85706/…
– RedBaron
yesterday
@EricLippert Well, for one thing Gandalf couldn’t just pick up any old stick, because – as we all know – the staff chooses the wizard. (No idea about Glamdring.)
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
16 hours ago
8
8
I always assumed he wanted to turn Gandalf to join his cause. If Gandalf would lose his wand, he wouldn't be as useful. I got nothing to back that up though.
– Mixxiphoid
2 days ago
I always assumed he wanted to turn Gandalf to join his cause. If Gandalf would lose his wand, he wouldn't be as useful. I got nothing to back that up though.
– Mixxiphoid
2 days ago
@Mixxiphoid He could get the One Ring's location from him. That could be done without his staff.
– the-profile-that-was-promised
2 days ago
@Mixxiphoid He could get the One Ring's location from him. That could be done without his staff.
– the-profile-that-was-promised
2 days ago
5
5
Do we have reason to believe that Saruman did not break or confiscate Gandalf's staff, and Gandalf just picked up a new one in Rivendell after his escape from the roof? There is also the question of Gandalf's sword, Glamdring; is he not carrying it when he has his encounter with Saruman? In the movie it is on his horse, which is not Shadowfax, so why doesn't Saruman now have Glamdring?
– Eric Lippert
2 days ago
Do we have reason to believe that Saruman did not break or confiscate Gandalf's staff, and Gandalf just picked up a new one in Rivendell after his escape from the roof? There is also the question of Gandalf's sword, Glamdring; is he not carrying it when he has his encounter with Saruman? In the movie it is on his horse, which is not Shadowfax, so why doesn't Saruman now have Glamdring?
– Eric Lippert
2 days ago
Somewhat related scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/85706/…
– RedBaron
yesterday
Somewhat related scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/85706/…
– RedBaron
yesterday
@EricLippert Well, for one thing Gandalf couldn’t just pick up any old stick, because – as we all know – the staff chooses the wizard. (No idea about Glamdring.)
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
16 hours ago
@EricLippert Well, for one thing Gandalf couldn’t just pick up any old stick, because – as we all know – the staff chooses the wizard. (No idea about Glamdring.)
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
16 hours ago
|
show 1 more comment
6 Answers
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active
oldest
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up vote
56
down vote
accepted
A wizard's staff is symbolic rather than a source of actual power, and so breaking a wizard's staff has no effect on the wizard's power.
How do we know this? Because Gandalf was able to defeat the Balrog without his staff.
At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand.
This was before his battle with the Balrog.
Saruman therefore didn't break Gandalf's staff because there was no need for him to do so and also because doing so would not have accomplished anything.
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10
@Asif Iqubal: Symbolism, both for the good guys and to make the point to Saruman himself. While breaking Saruman's staff had no effect on Saruman's powers, it did make the point to S. that Gandalf, not he, was the more powerful. Remember, that Gandalf still hoped for S.'s redemption and aid in the fight against Sauron. Saruman understanding that he had lost his position as Chief Wizard was a necessary step in that direction. It also made the point to Rohan, the Ents and everyone else that Gandalf had changed. (Remember that G. was not allowed to lead by domination, people had to follow.)
– Mark Olson
2 days ago
46
I disagree. If Gandalf's staff was decorative, why did it broke after demolishing Moria bridge? Why did Gandalf insist to retain his staff during audience with Theoden?
– user1643723
2 days ago
23
+1 on @user1643723; Gandalf needed to trick/convince the guards into letting him keep his staff in Edoras. He defeated the Balrog using his sword (and the cold waters).
– molnarm
2 days ago
33
Certainly a wizard doesn't need his staff to perform magic...but that doesn't mean the staff is symbolic. Anymore than the elven rings were symbolic. Clearly these staves are important to these wizards, and equally clearly, Gandalf is empowered to break Saruman's stuff in a way that Saruman was not so empowered. The wizard's staff is a vestment of authority, and the source of that authority comes from the Valar and ultimately, Illuvatar. and as Saruman was corrupt and fallen, authority was granted to Mithrandir. So I've always read between the lines, anyway.
– nunya
2 days ago
24
The breaking of Saruman's staff serves to excommunicate him. It is a withdrawal of Saruman's divine authority, enacted by Gandalf, as the loyal earthly agent of the Valar.
– nunya
2 days ago
|
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up vote
21
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Presumably because Gandalf was sent back by the Powers with greater power specifically for the purpose of fulfilling the role that Saruman had forsaken, to contest Sauron.
From The Two Towers (emphasis mine):
Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done.
Then to Saruman later:
'Come back, Saruman!' Gandalf said in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned back as if dragged against his will...
Since the Istari were Maiar, an increase in power would only have come from some greater being (i.e. the Illuvatar) so Gandalf is able to do what he did to Saruman (a reversal of their earlier position) because he is an agent of a greater Power still, and was granted that authority by his divine master.
3
Nitpick: Gandalf was not brought back by the valar but by Eru Ilúvatar himself.
– Rad80
yesterday
@Rad80 do you have a source? I don't recall that in the books/appendicies/silmarilion but I haven't read any of the other books (e.g. unfinished tales).
– Jared Smith
yesterday
9
It's in Tolkien's letters, I found out from this answer: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/109214/…
– Rad80
yesterday
@Rad80 thanks, edited.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
I always saw breaking the staff as a sign of supremacy.
Saruman already outranked Gandalf when he defeated him. Breaking Gandalf's staff wouldn't serve any additional purpose; the higher-ranking wizard should have been expected to win anyway.
When Gandalf later defeats Saruman, Gandalf breaks the staff as a symbol that his power has become greater, and he assumes the dominant rank.
As to the staffs themselves... I think a wizard does gain benefit from their staff, but it's not because of power in the staff itself. It's merely the benefit you get from a tool that has become comfortable with long use, but still one you could make again if need be.
Yes, staff is a symbol of office rather than just a tool. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_of_office
– Pete Kirkham
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
Saruman didn't break the staff, because he managed to take it whole from Gandalf and kept it (check out the end of the fight where Saruman has both staffs).
When Gandalf flees Orthanc he does so without his staff (revisit the scene here) and later on gets another staff. This differs in the films from the books. The accounts of how he gets another staff in the movie universe differ a bit and maybe this is worth a separate question, but he clearly loses his staff in the fight with Saruman.
Somewhat authoritative sources for this answer are this IMDB FAQ (check out How did Gandalf get his staff back from Saruman? He simply leaps off of Orthanc without it) and the Lotr wiki.
The flight scene also shows that Saruman still hoped he could turn Gandalf until that moment, so it was reasonable to keep his staff intact, but out of reach of Gandalf. Also note that in the movie universe, wizards obviously can make use of the staffs of other wizards (perhaps less efficiently). So, even if he would not convince Gandalf it might be prudent to keep the staff just like you might keep a spare sword around, if you have it anyway.
7
are we certain OP is asking about the films? Seems like it's re: the books
– NKCampbell
yesterday
@NKCampbell good point, for some reason I assumed it was clearly the movies, but you are right, there is no specific indication in that regard. Will see if I can later extend for the books.
– Darkwing
yesterday
The last paragraph is the key part here, +1. Saruman wanted Gandalf's help and hoped he would come around after a night thinking about the looming alternative.
– Nathan Hughes
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Poetry and drama. Gandalf's line, "Saruman, your staff is broken," is the only quote I remember from The Two Towers. It is not a direct command, it is as just as much a comment on how the positions have changed between these two wizards as well as destructive magic.
The storyline now apparently finishes with Saruman and the struggle for Middle-earth now turns towards Mordor.
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1
This, appears, to be an answer from an out of universe perspective whereas I got the impression the OP was after in universe answers. This is of course fine as an answer just though it was worth mentioning.
– TheLethalCarrot
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
It might be that Saruman, possessing the staff of Gandalf, could have more control over him. While Gandalf broke his staff since he did not care about having control over Saruman.
add a comment |
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
6 Answers
6
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
56
down vote
accepted
A wizard's staff is symbolic rather than a source of actual power, and so breaking a wizard's staff has no effect on the wizard's power.
How do we know this? Because Gandalf was able to defeat the Balrog without his staff.
At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand.
This was before his battle with the Balrog.
Saruman therefore didn't break Gandalf's staff because there was no need for him to do so and also because doing so would not have accomplished anything.
New contributor
Victim of Circumstance is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
10
@Asif Iqubal: Symbolism, both for the good guys and to make the point to Saruman himself. While breaking Saruman's staff had no effect on Saruman's powers, it did make the point to S. that Gandalf, not he, was the more powerful. Remember, that Gandalf still hoped for S.'s redemption and aid in the fight against Sauron. Saruman understanding that he had lost his position as Chief Wizard was a necessary step in that direction. It also made the point to Rohan, the Ents and everyone else that Gandalf had changed. (Remember that G. was not allowed to lead by domination, people had to follow.)
– Mark Olson
2 days ago
46
I disagree. If Gandalf's staff was decorative, why did it broke after demolishing Moria bridge? Why did Gandalf insist to retain his staff during audience with Theoden?
– user1643723
2 days ago
23
+1 on @user1643723; Gandalf needed to trick/convince the guards into letting him keep his staff in Edoras. He defeated the Balrog using his sword (and the cold waters).
– molnarm
2 days ago
33
Certainly a wizard doesn't need his staff to perform magic...but that doesn't mean the staff is symbolic. Anymore than the elven rings were symbolic. Clearly these staves are important to these wizards, and equally clearly, Gandalf is empowered to break Saruman's stuff in a way that Saruman was not so empowered. The wizard's staff is a vestment of authority, and the source of that authority comes from the Valar and ultimately, Illuvatar. and as Saruman was corrupt and fallen, authority was granted to Mithrandir. So I've always read between the lines, anyway.
– nunya
2 days ago
24
The breaking of Saruman's staff serves to excommunicate him. It is a withdrawal of Saruman's divine authority, enacted by Gandalf, as the loyal earthly agent of the Valar.
– nunya
2 days ago
|
show 11 more comments
up vote
56
down vote
accepted
A wizard's staff is symbolic rather than a source of actual power, and so breaking a wizard's staff has no effect on the wizard's power.
How do we know this? Because Gandalf was able to defeat the Balrog without his staff.
At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand.
This was before his battle with the Balrog.
Saruman therefore didn't break Gandalf's staff because there was no need for him to do so and also because doing so would not have accomplished anything.
New contributor
Victim of Circumstance is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
10
@Asif Iqubal: Symbolism, both for the good guys and to make the point to Saruman himself. While breaking Saruman's staff had no effect on Saruman's powers, it did make the point to S. that Gandalf, not he, was the more powerful. Remember, that Gandalf still hoped for S.'s redemption and aid in the fight against Sauron. Saruman understanding that he had lost his position as Chief Wizard was a necessary step in that direction. It also made the point to Rohan, the Ents and everyone else that Gandalf had changed. (Remember that G. was not allowed to lead by domination, people had to follow.)
– Mark Olson
2 days ago
46
I disagree. If Gandalf's staff was decorative, why did it broke after demolishing Moria bridge? Why did Gandalf insist to retain his staff during audience with Theoden?
– user1643723
2 days ago
23
+1 on @user1643723; Gandalf needed to trick/convince the guards into letting him keep his staff in Edoras. He defeated the Balrog using his sword (and the cold waters).
– molnarm
2 days ago
33
Certainly a wizard doesn't need his staff to perform magic...but that doesn't mean the staff is symbolic. Anymore than the elven rings were symbolic. Clearly these staves are important to these wizards, and equally clearly, Gandalf is empowered to break Saruman's stuff in a way that Saruman was not so empowered. The wizard's staff is a vestment of authority, and the source of that authority comes from the Valar and ultimately, Illuvatar. and as Saruman was corrupt and fallen, authority was granted to Mithrandir. So I've always read between the lines, anyway.
– nunya
2 days ago
24
The breaking of Saruman's staff serves to excommunicate him. It is a withdrawal of Saruman's divine authority, enacted by Gandalf, as the loyal earthly agent of the Valar.
– nunya
2 days ago
|
show 11 more comments
up vote
56
down vote
accepted
up vote
56
down vote
accepted
A wizard's staff is symbolic rather than a source of actual power, and so breaking a wizard's staff has no effect on the wizard's power.
How do we know this? Because Gandalf was able to defeat the Balrog without his staff.
At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand.
This was before his battle with the Balrog.
Saruman therefore didn't break Gandalf's staff because there was no need for him to do so and also because doing so would not have accomplished anything.
New contributor
Victim of Circumstance is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
A wizard's staff is symbolic rather than a source of actual power, and so breaking a wizard's staff has no effect on the wizard's power.
How do we know this? Because Gandalf was able to defeat the Balrog without his staff.
At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand.
This was before his battle with the Balrog.
Saruman therefore didn't break Gandalf's staff because there was no need for him to do so and also because doing so would not have accomplished anything.
New contributor
Victim of Circumstance is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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edited 2 days ago
Mat Cauthon
15.5k474129
15.5k474129
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answered 2 days ago
Victim of Circumstance
50233
50233
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Victim of Circumstance is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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New contributor
Victim of Circumstance is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Victim of Circumstance is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
10
@Asif Iqubal: Symbolism, both for the good guys and to make the point to Saruman himself. While breaking Saruman's staff had no effect on Saruman's powers, it did make the point to S. that Gandalf, not he, was the more powerful. Remember, that Gandalf still hoped for S.'s redemption and aid in the fight against Sauron. Saruman understanding that he had lost his position as Chief Wizard was a necessary step in that direction. It also made the point to Rohan, the Ents and everyone else that Gandalf had changed. (Remember that G. was not allowed to lead by domination, people had to follow.)
– Mark Olson
2 days ago
46
I disagree. If Gandalf's staff was decorative, why did it broke after demolishing Moria bridge? Why did Gandalf insist to retain his staff during audience with Theoden?
– user1643723
2 days ago
23
+1 on @user1643723; Gandalf needed to trick/convince the guards into letting him keep his staff in Edoras. He defeated the Balrog using his sword (and the cold waters).
– molnarm
2 days ago
33
Certainly a wizard doesn't need his staff to perform magic...but that doesn't mean the staff is symbolic. Anymore than the elven rings were symbolic. Clearly these staves are important to these wizards, and equally clearly, Gandalf is empowered to break Saruman's stuff in a way that Saruman was not so empowered. The wizard's staff is a vestment of authority, and the source of that authority comes from the Valar and ultimately, Illuvatar. and as Saruman was corrupt and fallen, authority was granted to Mithrandir. So I've always read between the lines, anyway.
– nunya
2 days ago
24
The breaking of Saruman's staff serves to excommunicate him. It is a withdrawal of Saruman's divine authority, enacted by Gandalf, as the loyal earthly agent of the Valar.
– nunya
2 days ago
|
show 11 more comments
10
@Asif Iqubal: Symbolism, both for the good guys and to make the point to Saruman himself. While breaking Saruman's staff had no effect on Saruman's powers, it did make the point to S. that Gandalf, not he, was the more powerful. Remember, that Gandalf still hoped for S.'s redemption and aid in the fight against Sauron. Saruman understanding that he had lost his position as Chief Wizard was a necessary step in that direction. It also made the point to Rohan, the Ents and everyone else that Gandalf had changed. (Remember that G. was not allowed to lead by domination, people had to follow.)
– Mark Olson
2 days ago
46
I disagree. If Gandalf's staff was decorative, why did it broke after demolishing Moria bridge? Why did Gandalf insist to retain his staff during audience with Theoden?
– user1643723
2 days ago
23
+1 on @user1643723; Gandalf needed to trick/convince the guards into letting him keep his staff in Edoras. He defeated the Balrog using his sword (and the cold waters).
– molnarm
2 days ago
33
Certainly a wizard doesn't need his staff to perform magic...but that doesn't mean the staff is symbolic. Anymore than the elven rings were symbolic. Clearly these staves are important to these wizards, and equally clearly, Gandalf is empowered to break Saruman's stuff in a way that Saruman was not so empowered. The wizard's staff is a vestment of authority, and the source of that authority comes from the Valar and ultimately, Illuvatar. and as Saruman was corrupt and fallen, authority was granted to Mithrandir. So I've always read between the lines, anyway.
– nunya
2 days ago
24
The breaking of Saruman's staff serves to excommunicate him. It is a withdrawal of Saruman's divine authority, enacted by Gandalf, as the loyal earthly agent of the Valar.
– nunya
2 days ago
10
10
@Asif Iqubal: Symbolism, both for the good guys and to make the point to Saruman himself. While breaking Saruman's staff had no effect on Saruman's powers, it did make the point to S. that Gandalf, not he, was the more powerful. Remember, that Gandalf still hoped for S.'s redemption and aid in the fight against Sauron. Saruman understanding that he had lost his position as Chief Wizard was a necessary step in that direction. It also made the point to Rohan, the Ents and everyone else that Gandalf had changed. (Remember that G. was not allowed to lead by domination, people had to follow.)
– Mark Olson
2 days ago
@Asif Iqubal: Symbolism, both for the good guys and to make the point to Saruman himself. While breaking Saruman's staff had no effect on Saruman's powers, it did make the point to S. that Gandalf, not he, was the more powerful. Remember, that Gandalf still hoped for S.'s redemption and aid in the fight against Sauron. Saruman understanding that he had lost his position as Chief Wizard was a necessary step in that direction. It also made the point to Rohan, the Ents and everyone else that Gandalf had changed. (Remember that G. was not allowed to lead by domination, people had to follow.)
– Mark Olson
2 days ago
46
46
I disagree. If Gandalf's staff was decorative, why did it broke after demolishing Moria bridge? Why did Gandalf insist to retain his staff during audience with Theoden?
– user1643723
2 days ago
I disagree. If Gandalf's staff was decorative, why did it broke after demolishing Moria bridge? Why did Gandalf insist to retain his staff during audience with Theoden?
– user1643723
2 days ago
23
23
+1 on @user1643723; Gandalf needed to trick/convince the guards into letting him keep his staff in Edoras. He defeated the Balrog using his sword (and the cold waters).
– molnarm
2 days ago
+1 on @user1643723; Gandalf needed to trick/convince the guards into letting him keep his staff in Edoras. He defeated the Balrog using his sword (and the cold waters).
– molnarm
2 days ago
33
33
Certainly a wizard doesn't need his staff to perform magic...but that doesn't mean the staff is symbolic. Anymore than the elven rings were symbolic. Clearly these staves are important to these wizards, and equally clearly, Gandalf is empowered to break Saruman's stuff in a way that Saruman was not so empowered. The wizard's staff is a vestment of authority, and the source of that authority comes from the Valar and ultimately, Illuvatar. and as Saruman was corrupt and fallen, authority was granted to Mithrandir. So I've always read between the lines, anyway.
– nunya
2 days ago
Certainly a wizard doesn't need his staff to perform magic...but that doesn't mean the staff is symbolic. Anymore than the elven rings were symbolic. Clearly these staves are important to these wizards, and equally clearly, Gandalf is empowered to break Saruman's stuff in a way that Saruman was not so empowered. The wizard's staff is a vestment of authority, and the source of that authority comes from the Valar and ultimately, Illuvatar. and as Saruman was corrupt and fallen, authority was granted to Mithrandir. So I've always read between the lines, anyway.
– nunya
2 days ago
24
24
The breaking of Saruman's staff serves to excommunicate him. It is a withdrawal of Saruman's divine authority, enacted by Gandalf, as the loyal earthly agent of the Valar.
– nunya
2 days ago
The breaking of Saruman's staff serves to excommunicate him. It is a withdrawal of Saruman's divine authority, enacted by Gandalf, as the loyal earthly agent of the Valar.
– nunya
2 days ago
|
show 11 more comments
up vote
21
down vote
Presumably because Gandalf was sent back by the Powers with greater power specifically for the purpose of fulfilling the role that Saruman had forsaken, to contest Sauron.
From The Two Towers (emphasis mine):
Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done.
Then to Saruman later:
'Come back, Saruman!' Gandalf said in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned back as if dragged against his will...
Since the Istari were Maiar, an increase in power would only have come from some greater being (i.e. the Illuvatar) so Gandalf is able to do what he did to Saruman (a reversal of their earlier position) because he is an agent of a greater Power still, and was granted that authority by his divine master.
3
Nitpick: Gandalf was not brought back by the valar but by Eru Ilúvatar himself.
– Rad80
yesterday
@Rad80 do you have a source? I don't recall that in the books/appendicies/silmarilion but I haven't read any of the other books (e.g. unfinished tales).
– Jared Smith
yesterday
9
It's in Tolkien's letters, I found out from this answer: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/109214/…
– Rad80
yesterday
@Rad80 thanks, edited.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
21
down vote
Presumably because Gandalf was sent back by the Powers with greater power specifically for the purpose of fulfilling the role that Saruman had forsaken, to contest Sauron.
From The Two Towers (emphasis mine):
Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done.
Then to Saruman later:
'Come back, Saruman!' Gandalf said in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned back as if dragged against his will...
Since the Istari were Maiar, an increase in power would only have come from some greater being (i.e. the Illuvatar) so Gandalf is able to do what he did to Saruman (a reversal of their earlier position) because he is an agent of a greater Power still, and was granted that authority by his divine master.
3
Nitpick: Gandalf was not brought back by the valar but by Eru Ilúvatar himself.
– Rad80
yesterday
@Rad80 do you have a source? I don't recall that in the books/appendicies/silmarilion but I haven't read any of the other books (e.g. unfinished tales).
– Jared Smith
yesterday
9
It's in Tolkien's letters, I found out from this answer: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/109214/…
– Rad80
yesterday
@Rad80 thanks, edited.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
21
down vote
up vote
21
down vote
Presumably because Gandalf was sent back by the Powers with greater power specifically for the purpose of fulfilling the role that Saruman had forsaken, to contest Sauron.
From The Two Towers (emphasis mine):
Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done.
Then to Saruman later:
'Come back, Saruman!' Gandalf said in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned back as if dragged against his will...
Since the Istari were Maiar, an increase in power would only have come from some greater being (i.e. the Illuvatar) so Gandalf is able to do what he did to Saruman (a reversal of their earlier position) because he is an agent of a greater Power still, and was granted that authority by his divine master.
Presumably because Gandalf was sent back by the Powers with greater power specifically for the purpose of fulfilling the role that Saruman had forsaken, to contest Sauron.
From The Two Towers (emphasis mine):
Naked I was sent back - for a brief time, until my task is done.
Then to Saruman later:
'Come back, Saruman!' Gandalf said in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned back as if dragged against his will...
Since the Istari were Maiar, an increase in power would only have come from some greater being (i.e. the Illuvatar) so Gandalf is able to do what he did to Saruman (a reversal of their earlier position) because he is an agent of a greater Power still, and was granted that authority by his divine master.
edited yesterday
answered 2 days ago


Jared Smith
47328
47328
3
Nitpick: Gandalf was not brought back by the valar but by Eru Ilúvatar himself.
– Rad80
yesterday
@Rad80 do you have a source? I don't recall that in the books/appendicies/silmarilion but I haven't read any of the other books (e.g. unfinished tales).
– Jared Smith
yesterday
9
It's in Tolkien's letters, I found out from this answer: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/109214/…
– Rad80
yesterday
@Rad80 thanks, edited.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
add a comment |
3
Nitpick: Gandalf was not brought back by the valar but by Eru Ilúvatar himself.
– Rad80
yesterday
@Rad80 do you have a source? I don't recall that in the books/appendicies/silmarilion but I haven't read any of the other books (e.g. unfinished tales).
– Jared Smith
yesterday
9
It's in Tolkien's letters, I found out from this answer: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/109214/…
– Rad80
yesterday
@Rad80 thanks, edited.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
3
3
Nitpick: Gandalf was not brought back by the valar but by Eru Ilúvatar himself.
– Rad80
yesterday
Nitpick: Gandalf was not brought back by the valar but by Eru Ilúvatar himself.
– Rad80
yesterday
@Rad80 do you have a source? I don't recall that in the books/appendicies/silmarilion but I haven't read any of the other books (e.g. unfinished tales).
– Jared Smith
yesterday
@Rad80 do you have a source? I don't recall that in the books/appendicies/silmarilion but I haven't read any of the other books (e.g. unfinished tales).
– Jared Smith
yesterday
9
9
It's in Tolkien's letters, I found out from this answer: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/109214/…
– Rad80
yesterday
It's in Tolkien's letters, I found out from this answer: scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/109214/…
– Rad80
yesterday
@Rad80 thanks, edited.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
@Rad80 thanks, edited.
– Jared Smith
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
I always saw breaking the staff as a sign of supremacy.
Saruman already outranked Gandalf when he defeated him. Breaking Gandalf's staff wouldn't serve any additional purpose; the higher-ranking wizard should have been expected to win anyway.
When Gandalf later defeats Saruman, Gandalf breaks the staff as a symbol that his power has become greater, and he assumes the dominant rank.
As to the staffs themselves... I think a wizard does gain benefit from their staff, but it's not because of power in the staff itself. It's merely the benefit you get from a tool that has become comfortable with long use, but still one you could make again if need be.
Yes, staff is a symbol of office rather than just a tool. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_of_office
– Pete Kirkham
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
I always saw breaking the staff as a sign of supremacy.
Saruman already outranked Gandalf when he defeated him. Breaking Gandalf's staff wouldn't serve any additional purpose; the higher-ranking wizard should have been expected to win anyway.
When Gandalf later defeats Saruman, Gandalf breaks the staff as a symbol that his power has become greater, and he assumes the dominant rank.
As to the staffs themselves... I think a wizard does gain benefit from their staff, but it's not because of power in the staff itself. It's merely the benefit you get from a tool that has become comfortable with long use, but still one you could make again if need be.
Yes, staff is a symbol of office rather than just a tool. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_of_office
– Pete Kirkham
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
6
down vote
up vote
6
down vote
I always saw breaking the staff as a sign of supremacy.
Saruman already outranked Gandalf when he defeated him. Breaking Gandalf's staff wouldn't serve any additional purpose; the higher-ranking wizard should have been expected to win anyway.
When Gandalf later defeats Saruman, Gandalf breaks the staff as a symbol that his power has become greater, and he assumes the dominant rank.
As to the staffs themselves... I think a wizard does gain benefit from their staff, but it's not because of power in the staff itself. It's merely the benefit you get from a tool that has become comfortable with long use, but still one you could make again if need be.
I always saw breaking the staff as a sign of supremacy.
Saruman already outranked Gandalf when he defeated him. Breaking Gandalf's staff wouldn't serve any additional purpose; the higher-ranking wizard should have been expected to win anyway.
When Gandalf later defeats Saruman, Gandalf breaks the staff as a symbol that his power has become greater, and he assumes the dominant rank.
As to the staffs themselves... I think a wizard does gain benefit from their staff, but it's not because of power in the staff itself. It's merely the benefit you get from a tool that has become comfortable with long use, but still one you could make again if need be.
edited yesterday
answered yesterday
Joel Coehoorn
2,1321317
2,1321317
Yes, staff is a symbol of office rather than just a tool. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_of_office
– Pete Kirkham
yesterday
add a comment |
Yes, staff is a symbol of office rather than just a tool. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_of_office
– Pete Kirkham
yesterday
Yes, staff is a symbol of office rather than just a tool. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_of_office
– Pete Kirkham
yesterday
Yes, staff is a symbol of office rather than just a tool. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staff_of_office
– Pete Kirkham
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
Saruman didn't break the staff, because he managed to take it whole from Gandalf and kept it (check out the end of the fight where Saruman has both staffs).
When Gandalf flees Orthanc he does so without his staff (revisit the scene here) and later on gets another staff. This differs in the films from the books. The accounts of how he gets another staff in the movie universe differ a bit and maybe this is worth a separate question, but he clearly loses his staff in the fight with Saruman.
Somewhat authoritative sources for this answer are this IMDB FAQ (check out How did Gandalf get his staff back from Saruman? He simply leaps off of Orthanc without it) and the Lotr wiki.
The flight scene also shows that Saruman still hoped he could turn Gandalf until that moment, so it was reasonable to keep his staff intact, but out of reach of Gandalf. Also note that in the movie universe, wizards obviously can make use of the staffs of other wizards (perhaps less efficiently). So, even if he would not convince Gandalf it might be prudent to keep the staff just like you might keep a spare sword around, if you have it anyway.
7
are we certain OP is asking about the films? Seems like it's re: the books
– NKCampbell
yesterday
@NKCampbell good point, for some reason I assumed it was clearly the movies, but you are right, there is no specific indication in that regard. Will see if I can later extend for the books.
– Darkwing
yesterday
The last paragraph is the key part here, +1. Saruman wanted Gandalf's help and hoped he would come around after a night thinking about the looming alternative.
– Nathan Hughes
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
Saruman didn't break the staff, because he managed to take it whole from Gandalf and kept it (check out the end of the fight where Saruman has both staffs).
When Gandalf flees Orthanc he does so without his staff (revisit the scene here) and later on gets another staff. This differs in the films from the books. The accounts of how he gets another staff in the movie universe differ a bit and maybe this is worth a separate question, but he clearly loses his staff in the fight with Saruman.
Somewhat authoritative sources for this answer are this IMDB FAQ (check out How did Gandalf get his staff back from Saruman? He simply leaps off of Orthanc without it) and the Lotr wiki.
The flight scene also shows that Saruman still hoped he could turn Gandalf until that moment, so it was reasonable to keep his staff intact, but out of reach of Gandalf. Also note that in the movie universe, wizards obviously can make use of the staffs of other wizards (perhaps less efficiently). So, even if he would not convince Gandalf it might be prudent to keep the staff just like you might keep a spare sword around, if you have it anyway.
7
are we certain OP is asking about the films? Seems like it's re: the books
– NKCampbell
yesterday
@NKCampbell good point, for some reason I assumed it was clearly the movies, but you are right, there is no specific indication in that regard. Will see if I can later extend for the books.
– Darkwing
yesterday
The last paragraph is the key part here, +1. Saruman wanted Gandalf's help and hoped he would come around after a night thinking about the looming alternative.
– Nathan Hughes
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
5
down vote
up vote
5
down vote
Saruman didn't break the staff, because he managed to take it whole from Gandalf and kept it (check out the end of the fight where Saruman has both staffs).
When Gandalf flees Orthanc he does so without his staff (revisit the scene here) and later on gets another staff. This differs in the films from the books. The accounts of how he gets another staff in the movie universe differ a bit and maybe this is worth a separate question, but he clearly loses his staff in the fight with Saruman.
Somewhat authoritative sources for this answer are this IMDB FAQ (check out How did Gandalf get his staff back from Saruman? He simply leaps off of Orthanc without it) and the Lotr wiki.
The flight scene also shows that Saruman still hoped he could turn Gandalf until that moment, so it was reasonable to keep his staff intact, but out of reach of Gandalf. Also note that in the movie universe, wizards obviously can make use of the staffs of other wizards (perhaps less efficiently). So, even if he would not convince Gandalf it might be prudent to keep the staff just like you might keep a spare sword around, if you have it anyway.
Saruman didn't break the staff, because he managed to take it whole from Gandalf and kept it (check out the end of the fight where Saruman has both staffs).
When Gandalf flees Orthanc he does so without his staff (revisit the scene here) and later on gets another staff. This differs in the films from the books. The accounts of how he gets another staff in the movie universe differ a bit and maybe this is worth a separate question, but he clearly loses his staff in the fight with Saruman.
Somewhat authoritative sources for this answer are this IMDB FAQ (check out How did Gandalf get his staff back from Saruman? He simply leaps off of Orthanc without it) and the Lotr wiki.
The flight scene also shows that Saruman still hoped he could turn Gandalf until that moment, so it was reasonable to keep his staff intact, but out of reach of Gandalf. Also note that in the movie universe, wizards obviously can make use of the staffs of other wizards (perhaps less efficiently). So, even if he would not convince Gandalf it might be prudent to keep the staff just like you might keep a spare sword around, if you have it anyway.
edited yesterday
Community♦
1
1
answered yesterday
Darkwing
26416
26416
7
are we certain OP is asking about the films? Seems like it's re: the books
– NKCampbell
yesterday
@NKCampbell good point, for some reason I assumed it was clearly the movies, but you are right, there is no specific indication in that regard. Will see if I can later extend for the books.
– Darkwing
yesterday
The last paragraph is the key part here, +1. Saruman wanted Gandalf's help and hoped he would come around after a night thinking about the looming alternative.
– Nathan Hughes
yesterday
add a comment |
7
are we certain OP is asking about the films? Seems like it's re: the books
– NKCampbell
yesterday
@NKCampbell good point, for some reason I assumed it was clearly the movies, but you are right, there is no specific indication in that regard. Will see if I can later extend for the books.
– Darkwing
yesterday
The last paragraph is the key part here, +1. Saruman wanted Gandalf's help and hoped he would come around after a night thinking about the looming alternative.
– Nathan Hughes
yesterday
7
7
are we certain OP is asking about the films? Seems like it's re: the books
– NKCampbell
yesterday
are we certain OP is asking about the films? Seems like it's re: the books
– NKCampbell
yesterday
@NKCampbell good point, for some reason I assumed it was clearly the movies, but you are right, there is no specific indication in that regard. Will see if I can later extend for the books.
– Darkwing
yesterday
@NKCampbell good point, for some reason I assumed it was clearly the movies, but you are right, there is no specific indication in that regard. Will see if I can later extend for the books.
– Darkwing
yesterday
The last paragraph is the key part here, +1. Saruman wanted Gandalf's help and hoped he would come around after a night thinking about the looming alternative.
– Nathan Hughes
yesterday
The last paragraph is the key part here, +1. Saruman wanted Gandalf's help and hoped he would come around after a night thinking about the looming alternative.
– Nathan Hughes
yesterday
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Poetry and drama. Gandalf's line, "Saruman, your staff is broken," is the only quote I remember from The Two Towers. It is not a direct command, it is as just as much a comment on how the positions have changed between these two wizards as well as destructive magic.
The storyline now apparently finishes with Saruman and the struggle for Middle-earth now turns towards Mordor.
New contributor
narratorjay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
This, appears, to be an answer from an out of universe perspective whereas I got the impression the OP was after in universe answers. This is of course fine as an answer just though it was worth mentioning.
– TheLethalCarrot
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
Poetry and drama. Gandalf's line, "Saruman, your staff is broken," is the only quote I remember from The Two Towers. It is not a direct command, it is as just as much a comment on how the positions have changed between these two wizards as well as destructive magic.
The storyline now apparently finishes with Saruman and the struggle for Middle-earth now turns towards Mordor.
New contributor
narratorjay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
This, appears, to be an answer from an out of universe perspective whereas I got the impression the OP was after in universe answers. This is of course fine as an answer just though it was worth mentioning.
– TheLethalCarrot
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
up vote
3
down vote
Poetry and drama. Gandalf's line, "Saruman, your staff is broken," is the only quote I remember from The Two Towers. It is not a direct command, it is as just as much a comment on how the positions have changed between these two wizards as well as destructive magic.
The storyline now apparently finishes with Saruman and the struggle for Middle-earth now turns towards Mordor.
New contributor
narratorjay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
Poetry and drama. Gandalf's line, "Saruman, your staff is broken," is the only quote I remember from The Two Towers. It is not a direct command, it is as just as much a comment on how the positions have changed between these two wizards as well as destructive magic.
The storyline now apparently finishes with Saruman and the struggle for Middle-earth now turns towards Mordor.
New contributor
narratorjay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
edited 2 days ago


TheLethalCarrot
37.4k15203247
37.4k15203247
New contributor
narratorjay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
answered 2 days ago
narratorjay
391
391
New contributor
narratorjay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
New contributor
narratorjay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
narratorjay is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
1
This, appears, to be an answer from an out of universe perspective whereas I got the impression the OP was after in universe answers. This is of course fine as an answer just though it was worth mentioning.
– TheLethalCarrot
2 days ago
add a comment |
1
This, appears, to be an answer from an out of universe perspective whereas I got the impression the OP was after in universe answers. This is of course fine as an answer just though it was worth mentioning.
– TheLethalCarrot
2 days ago
1
1
This, appears, to be an answer from an out of universe perspective whereas I got the impression the OP was after in universe answers. This is of course fine as an answer just though it was worth mentioning.
– TheLethalCarrot
2 days ago
This, appears, to be an answer from an out of universe perspective whereas I got the impression the OP was after in universe answers. This is of course fine as an answer just though it was worth mentioning.
– TheLethalCarrot
2 days ago
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
It might be that Saruman, possessing the staff of Gandalf, could have more control over him. While Gandalf broke his staff since he did not care about having control over Saruman.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
It might be that Saruman, possessing the staff of Gandalf, could have more control over him. While Gandalf broke his staff since he did not care about having control over Saruman.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
It might be that Saruman, possessing the staff of Gandalf, could have more control over him. While Gandalf broke his staff since he did not care about having control over Saruman.
It might be that Saruman, possessing the staff of Gandalf, could have more control over him. While Gandalf broke his staff since he did not care about having control over Saruman.
answered 4 hours ago
მამუკა ჯიბლაძე
1514
1514
add a comment |
add a comment |
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R3LJnTcOVLy AKVFeJSW2XMk
8
I always assumed he wanted to turn Gandalf to join his cause. If Gandalf would lose his wand, he wouldn't be as useful. I got nothing to back that up though.
– Mixxiphoid
2 days ago
@Mixxiphoid He could get the One Ring's location from him. That could be done without his staff.
– the-profile-that-was-promised
2 days ago
5
Do we have reason to believe that Saruman did not break or confiscate Gandalf's staff, and Gandalf just picked up a new one in Rivendell after his escape from the roof? There is also the question of Gandalf's sword, Glamdring; is he not carrying it when he has his encounter with Saruman? In the movie it is on his horse, which is not Shadowfax, so why doesn't Saruman now have Glamdring?
– Eric Lippert
2 days ago
Somewhat related scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/85706/…
– RedBaron
yesterday
@EricLippert Well, for one thing Gandalf couldn’t just pick up any old stick, because – as we all know – the staff chooses the wizard. (No idea about Glamdring.)
– Janus Bahs Jacquet
16 hours ago