What makes the pairs of operators (-, +) and (/, ×) so similar?
Short Version
When defining the $-$, $+$, $/$, and $×$ operators in a functional manner, one can observe that the $(-, +)$ pair is very similar to the $(/, ×)$ pair, and the only main difference between them is their identity terms ($0$ and $1$ respectively).
My questions are the following: where can I find some prior work on this topic, and can one define a family of such operator pairs with different identity terms? Is there any theory for such objects?
Set Theory Version
While the arithmetic properties outlined below can be defined for both sets and types, referring to set theory might help clarify the question: if $(+, -)$ with 0 as identity element defines a group and $[(+, -), (×, /)]$ with 1 as identity element for $(×, /)$ defines a field, what is defined by $[(+, -), (×, /), (#, @)]$ with an identity element for $(#, @)$ other than 0 and 1?
Long Version
One can define the $-$, $+$, $/$, and $×$ operators in the following fashion:
Minus:
$
small text{Minus Identity Term: the minus identity term is equal to 0.}normalsize\
i(m) = 0.\
quad\
small text{Subtraction Identity:} enspace alpha - 0 = alpha.normalsize\
m(alpha, i(m)) = alpha.\
quad\
small text{Self Subtraction:} enspace alpha = beta Longleftrightarrow alpha - beta = 0.normalsize\
alpha = beta Longleftrightarrow m(alpha, beta) = i(m).\
quad\
small text{Subtraction Affine Identity:} enspace alpha - (beta - gamma) = gamma - (beta - alpha).normalsize\
m(alpha, m(beta, gamma)) = m(gamma, m(beta, alpha)).\
$
Plus:
$
small text{Multiplication Affine Identity:} enspace (alpha + beta) - gamma = alpha - (gamma - beta).normalsize\
m(p(alpha, beta), gamma) = m(alpha, m(gamma, beta)).\
$
Divides:
$
small text{Divides Identity Term: the divides identity term is equal to 1.} normalsize\
i(d) = 1.\
quad\
small text{Division Identity:} enspace frac{alpha}{1} = alpha.normalsize\
d(alpha, i(d)) = alpha.\
quad\
small text{Self Division:} enspace frac{alpha}{alpha} = 1.normalsize\
alpha = beta Longleftrightarrow d(alpha, beta) = i(d).\
quad\
small text{Division Affine Identity:} enspace frac{alpha}{frac{beta}{gamma}} = frac{gamma}{frac{beta}{alpha}}.normalsize\
d(alpha, d(beta, gamma)) = d(gamma, d(beta, alpha)).\
$
Times:
$
small text{Multiplication Affine Identity:} enspace frac{alpha × beta}{gamma} = frac{alpha}{frac{gamma}{beta}}.normalsize\
d(t(alpha, beta), gamma) = d(alpha, d(gamma, beta)).\
$
We observe that the pair of divides and times operators are defined exactly the same way as the pair of minus and plus operators, but with different identity terms, and with a minus identity restriction on the multiplier subdomain of the divides function.
The symmetry established between the pairs of operators $(-, +)$ and $(/, ×)$ allows the following pairs of properties to be proven for both properties in every pair by proving it for a single property.
The following properties are established for any pair of operator functions $(f, g)$, which corresponds to the pairs $(-, +)$ and $(/, ×)$. Furthermore, the term reverse is used to refer to the opposite for the $(-, +)$ pair and to the inverse for the $(/, ×)$ pair.
Proofs for the $(-, +)$ pair can be found on this notebook.
Anticommutativity: $f(alpha, beta) = f(i(f), f(beta, alpha).$
$
alpha - beta = -(beta - alpha).\
quad\
displaystyle frac{alpha}{beta} = frac{1}{frac{beta}{alpha}}.\
$
Double Reverse Identity: $alpha = f(i(f), f(i(f), alpha)).$
$
alpha = -(-alpha).\
quad\
displaystyle alpha = frac{1}{frac{1}{alpha}}.\
$
Associative Commutativity: $f(f(alpha, beta), gamma) = f(f(alpha, gamma), beta).$
$
(alpha - beta) - gamma = (alpha - gamma) - beta.\
quad\
displaystyle frac{frac{alpha}{beta}}{gamma} = frac{frac{alpha}{gamma}}{beta}.\
$
Affine Equivalence: $f(alpha, beta) = gamma Longleftrightarrow f(alpha, gamma) = beta.$
$
alpha - beta = gamma Longleftrightarrow alpha - gamma = beta.\
quad\
displaystyle frac{alpha}{beta} = gamma Longleftrightarrow frac{alpha}{gamma} = beta.\
$
Identity Element: $g(alpha, i(f)) = alpha.$
$
alpha + 0 = alpha.\
quad\
alpha × 1 = alpha.\
$
Dual Substitution: $g(alpha, beta) = f(alpha, f(i(f), beta)).$
$
alpha + beta = alpha - (-beta).\
quad\
alpha × beta = frac{alpha}{frac{1}{beta}}.\
$
Dual Equivalence: $alpha = g(beta, gamma) Longleftrightarrow beta = f(alpha, gamma).$
$
alpha = beta + gamma Longleftrightarrow beta = alpha - gamma.\
quad\
alpha = beta × gamma Longleftrightarrow beta = frac{alpha}{gamma}.\
$
Commutativity: $g(alpha, beta) = g(beta, alpha).$
$
alpha + beta = beta + alpha.\
quad\
alpha × beta = beta × alpha.\
$
Associativity: $g(g(alpha, beta), gamma) = g(alpha, g(beta, gamma)).$
$
(alpha + beta) + gamma = alpha + (beta + gamma).\
quad\
(alpha × beta) × gamma = alpha × (beta × gamma).\
$
Dual Identity: $(g(f(alpha, beta), beta) = alpha) land (f(g(alpha, beta), beta) = alpha).$
$
((alpha - beta) + beta = alpha) land ((alpha + beta) - beta = alpha).\
quad\
displaystyle (frac{alpha}{gamma} × beta = alpha) land (frac{alpha × beta}{beta} = alpha).\
$
abstract-algebra arithmetic
|
show 6 more comments
Short Version
When defining the $-$, $+$, $/$, and $×$ operators in a functional manner, one can observe that the $(-, +)$ pair is very similar to the $(/, ×)$ pair, and the only main difference between them is their identity terms ($0$ and $1$ respectively).
My questions are the following: where can I find some prior work on this topic, and can one define a family of such operator pairs with different identity terms? Is there any theory for such objects?
Set Theory Version
While the arithmetic properties outlined below can be defined for both sets and types, referring to set theory might help clarify the question: if $(+, -)$ with 0 as identity element defines a group and $[(+, -), (×, /)]$ with 1 as identity element for $(×, /)$ defines a field, what is defined by $[(+, -), (×, /), (#, @)]$ with an identity element for $(#, @)$ other than 0 and 1?
Long Version
One can define the $-$, $+$, $/$, and $×$ operators in the following fashion:
Minus:
$
small text{Minus Identity Term: the minus identity term is equal to 0.}normalsize\
i(m) = 0.\
quad\
small text{Subtraction Identity:} enspace alpha - 0 = alpha.normalsize\
m(alpha, i(m)) = alpha.\
quad\
small text{Self Subtraction:} enspace alpha = beta Longleftrightarrow alpha - beta = 0.normalsize\
alpha = beta Longleftrightarrow m(alpha, beta) = i(m).\
quad\
small text{Subtraction Affine Identity:} enspace alpha - (beta - gamma) = gamma - (beta - alpha).normalsize\
m(alpha, m(beta, gamma)) = m(gamma, m(beta, alpha)).\
$
Plus:
$
small text{Multiplication Affine Identity:} enspace (alpha + beta) - gamma = alpha - (gamma - beta).normalsize\
m(p(alpha, beta), gamma) = m(alpha, m(gamma, beta)).\
$
Divides:
$
small text{Divides Identity Term: the divides identity term is equal to 1.} normalsize\
i(d) = 1.\
quad\
small text{Division Identity:} enspace frac{alpha}{1} = alpha.normalsize\
d(alpha, i(d)) = alpha.\
quad\
small text{Self Division:} enspace frac{alpha}{alpha} = 1.normalsize\
alpha = beta Longleftrightarrow d(alpha, beta) = i(d).\
quad\
small text{Division Affine Identity:} enspace frac{alpha}{frac{beta}{gamma}} = frac{gamma}{frac{beta}{alpha}}.normalsize\
d(alpha, d(beta, gamma)) = d(gamma, d(beta, alpha)).\
$
Times:
$
small text{Multiplication Affine Identity:} enspace frac{alpha × beta}{gamma} = frac{alpha}{frac{gamma}{beta}}.normalsize\
d(t(alpha, beta), gamma) = d(alpha, d(gamma, beta)).\
$
We observe that the pair of divides and times operators are defined exactly the same way as the pair of minus and plus operators, but with different identity terms, and with a minus identity restriction on the multiplier subdomain of the divides function.
The symmetry established between the pairs of operators $(-, +)$ and $(/, ×)$ allows the following pairs of properties to be proven for both properties in every pair by proving it for a single property.
The following properties are established for any pair of operator functions $(f, g)$, which corresponds to the pairs $(-, +)$ and $(/, ×)$. Furthermore, the term reverse is used to refer to the opposite for the $(-, +)$ pair and to the inverse for the $(/, ×)$ pair.
Proofs for the $(-, +)$ pair can be found on this notebook.
Anticommutativity: $f(alpha, beta) = f(i(f), f(beta, alpha).$
$
alpha - beta = -(beta - alpha).\
quad\
displaystyle frac{alpha}{beta} = frac{1}{frac{beta}{alpha}}.\
$
Double Reverse Identity: $alpha = f(i(f), f(i(f), alpha)).$
$
alpha = -(-alpha).\
quad\
displaystyle alpha = frac{1}{frac{1}{alpha}}.\
$
Associative Commutativity: $f(f(alpha, beta), gamma) = f(f(alpha, gamma), beta).$
$
(alpha - beta) - gamma = (alpha - gamma) - beta.\
quad\
displaystyle frac{frac{alpha}{beta}}{gamma} = frac{frac{alpha}{gamma}}{beta}.\
$
Affine Equivalence: $f(alpha, beta) = gamma Longleftrightarrow f(alpha, gamma) = beta.$
$
alpha - beta = gamma Longleftrightarrow alpha - gamma = beta.\
quad\
displaystyle frac{alpha}{beta} = gamma Longleftrightarrow frac{alpha}{gamma} = beta.\
$
Identity Element: $g(alpha, i(f)) = alpha.$
$
alpha + 0 = alpha.\
quad\
alpha × 1 = alpha.\
$
Dual Substitution: $g(alpha, beta) = f(alpha, f(i(f), beta)).$
$
alpha + beta = alpha - (-beta).\
quad\
alpha × beta = frac{alpha}{frac{1}{beta}}.\
$
Dual Equivalence: $alpha = g(beta, gamma) Longleftrightarrow beta = f(alpha, gamma).$
$
alpha = beta + gamma Longleftrightarrow beta = alpha - gamma.\
quad\
alpha = beta × gamma Longleftrightarrow beta = frac{alpha}{gamma}.\
$
Commutativity: $g(alpha, beta) = g(beta, alpha).$
$
alpha + beta = beta + alpha.\
quad\
alpha × beta = beta × alpha.\
$
Associativity: $g(g(alpha, beta), gamma) = g(alpha, g(beta, gamma)).$
$
(alpha + beta) + gamma = alpha + (beta + gamma).\
quad\
(alpha × beta) × gamma = alpha × (beta × gamma).\
$
Dual Identity: $(g(f(alpha, beta), beta) = alpha) land (f(g(alpha, beta), beta) = alpha).$
$
((alpha - beta) + beta = alpha) land ((alpha + beta) - beta = alpha).\
quad\
displaystyle (frac{alpha}{gamma} × beta = alpha) land (frac{alpha × beta}{beta} = alpha).\
$
abstract-algebra arithmetic
1
There is a mistake in the anticommutativity part for subtraction
– Slugger
1 hour ago
Have you heard of groups?
– jgon
1 hour ago
@Slugger Sorry for the mistake and thanks a lot for the fix!
– ismael
1 hour ago
@ismael No problem! You also say that "the only main difference between them is their identity elements (0 and 1 respectively)", but keep in mind that another significant difference is that multiplicative inverses are not defined for all numbers, i.e., for zero
– Slugger
1 hour ago
@jgon Yes, thank you very much. But this does not really answer my question. Also, I am trying to study these properties without relying on the axioms required for set theory. Therefore, I prefer working with types whenever possible.
– ismael
1 hour ago
|
show 6 more comments
Short Version
When defining the $-$, $+$, $/$, and $×$ operators in a functional manner, one can observe that the $(-, +)$ pair is very similar to the $(/, ×)$ pair, and the only main difference between them is their identity terms ($0$ and $1$ respectively).
My questions are the following: where can I find some prior work on this topic, and can one define a family of such operator pairs with different identity terms? Is there any theory for such objects?
Set Theory Version
While the arithmetic properties outlined below can be defined for both sets and types, referring to set theory might help clarify the question: if $(+, -)$ with 0 as identity element defines a group and $[(+, -), (×, /)]$ with 1 as identity element for $(×, /)$ defines a field, what is defined by $[(+, -), (×, /), (#, @)]$ with an identity element for $(#, @)$ other than 0 and 1?
Long Version
One can define the $-$, $+$, $/$, and $×$ operators in the following fashion:
Minus:
$
small text{Minus Identity Term: the minus identity term is equal to 0.}normalsize\
i(m) = 0.\
quad\
small text{Subtraction Identity:} enspace alpha - 0 = alpha.normalsize\
m(alpha, i(m)) = alpha.\
quad\
small text{Self Subtraction:} enspace alpha = beta Longleftrightarrow alpha - beta = 0.normalsize\
alpha = beta Longleftrightarrow m(alpha, beta) = i(m).\
quad\
small text{Subtraction Affine Identity:} enspace alpha - (beta - gamma) = gamma - (beta - alpha).normalsize\
m(alpha, m(beta, gamma)) = m(gamma, m(beta, alpha)).\
$
Plus:
$
small text{Multiplication Affine Identity:} enspace (alpha + beta) - gamma = alpha - (gamma - beta).normalsize\
m(p(alpha, beta), gamma) = m(alpha, m(gamma, beta)).\
$
Divides:
$
small text{Divides Identity Term: the divides identity term is equal to 1.} normalsize\
i(d) = 1.\
quad\
small text{Division Identity:} enspace frac{alpha}{1} = alpha.normalsize\
d(alpha, i(d)) = alpha.\
quad\
small text{Self Division:} enspace frac{alpha}{alpha} = 1.normalsize\
alpha = beta Longleftrightarrow d(alpha, beta) = i(d).\
quad\
small text{Division Affine Identity:} enspace frac{alpha}{frac{beta}{gamma}} = frac{gamma}{frac{beta}{alpha}}.normalsize\
d(alpha, d(beta, gamma)) = d(gamma, d(beta, alpha)).\
$
Times:
$
small text{Multiplication Affine Identity:} enspace frac{alpha × beta}{gamma} = frac{alpha}{frac{gamma}{beta}}.normalsize\
d(t(alpha, beta), gamma) = d(alpha, d(gamma, beta)).\
$
We observe that the pair of divides and times operators are defined exactly the same way as the pair of minus and plus operators, but with different identity terms, and with a minus identity restriction on the multiplier subdomain of the divides function.
The symmetry established between the pairs of operators $(-, +)$ and $(/, ×)$ allows the following pairs of properties to be proven for both properties in every pair by proving it for a single property.
The following properties are established for any pair of operator functions $(f, g)$, which corresponds to the pairs $(-, +)$ and $(/, ×)$. Furthermore, the term reverse is used to refer to the opposite for the $(-, +)$ pair and to the inverse for the $(/, ×)$ pair.
Proofs for the $(-, +)$ pair can be found on this notebook.
Anticommutativity: $f(alpha, beta) = f(i(f), f(beta, alpha).$
$
alpha - beta = -(beta - alpha).\
quad\
displaystyle frac{alpha}{beta} = frac{1}{frac{beta}{alpha}}.\
$
Double Reverse Identity: $alpha = f(i(f), f(i(f), alpha)).$
$
alpha = -(-alpha).\
quad\
displaystyle alpha = frac{1}{frac{1}{alpha}}.\
$
Associative Commutativity: $f(f(alpha, beta), gamma) = f(f(alpha, gamma), beta).$
$
(alpha - beta) - gamma = (alpha - gamma) - beta.\
quad\
displaystyle frac{frac{alpha}{beta}}{gamma} = frac{frac{alpha}{gamma}}{beta}.\
$
Affine Equivalence: $f(alpha, beta) = gamma Longleftrightarrow f(alpha, gamma) = beta.$
$
alpha - beta = gamma Longleftrightarrow alpha - gamma = beta.\
quad\
displaystyle frac{alpha}{beta} = gamma Longleftrightarrow frac{alpha}{gamma} = beta.\
$
Identity Element: $g(alpha, i(f)) = alpha.$
$
alpha + 0 = alpha.\
quad\
alpha × 1 = alpha.\
$
Dual Substitution: $g(alpha, beta) = f(alpha, f(i(f), beta)).$
$
alpha + beta = alpha - (-beta).\
quad\
alpha × beta = frac{alpha}{frac{1}{beta}}.\
$
Dual Equivalence: $alpha = g(beta, gamma) Longleftrightarrow beta = f(alpha, gamma).$
$
alpha = beta + gamma Longleftrightarrow beta = alpha - gamma.\
quad\
alpha = beta × gamma Longleftrightarrow beta = frac{alpha}{gamma}.\
$
Commutativity: $g(alpha, beta) = g(beta, alpha).$
$
alpha + beta = beta + alpha.\
quad\
alpha × beta = beta × alpha.\
$
Associativity: $g(g(alpha, beta), gamma) = g(alpha, g(beta, gamma)).$
$
(alpha + beta) + gamma = alpha + (beta + gamma).\
quad\
(alpha × beta) × gamma = alpha × (beta × gamma).\
$
Dual Identity: $(g(f(alpha, beta), beta) = alpha) land (f(g(alpha, beta), beta) = alpha).$
$
((alpha - beta) + beta = alpha) land ((alpha + beta) - beta = alpha).\
quad\
displaystyle (frac{alpha}{gamma} × beta = alpha) land (frac{alpha × beta}{beta} = alpha).\
$
abstract-algebra arithmetic
Short Version
When defining the $-$, $+$, $/$, and $×$ operators in a functional manner, one can observe that the $(-, +)$ pair is very similar to the $(/, ×)$ pair, and the only main difference between them is their identity terms ($0$ and $1$ respectively).
My questions are the following: where can I find some prior work on this topic, and can one define a family of such operator pairs with different identity terms? Is there any theory for such objects?
Set Theory Version
While the arithmetic properties outlined below can be defined for both sets and types, referring to set theory might help clarify the question: if $(+, -)$ with 0 as identity element defines a group and $[(+, -), (×, /)]$ with 1 as identity element for $(×, /)$ defines a field, what is defined by $[(+, -), (×, /), (#, @)]$ with an identity element for $(#, @)$ other than 0 and 1?
Long Version
One can define the $-$, $+$, $/$, and $×$ operators in the following fashion:
Minus:
$
small text{Minus Identity Term: the minus identity term is equal to 0.}normalsize\
i(m) = 0.\
quad\
small text{Subtraction Identity:} enspace alpha - 0 = alpha.normalsize\
m(alpha, i(m)) = alpha.\
quad\
small text{Self Subtraction:} enspace alpha = beta Longleftrightarrow alpha - beta = 0.normalsize\
alpha = beta Longleftrightarrow m(alpha, beta) = i(m).\
quad\
small text{Subtraction Affine Identity:} enspace alpha - (beta - gamma) = gamma - (beta - alpha).normalsize\
m(alpha, m(beta, gamma)) = m(gamma, m(beta, alpha)).\
$
Plus:
$
small text{Multiplication Affine Identity:} enspace (alpha + beta) - gamma = alpha - (gamma - beta).normalsize\
m(p(alpha, beta), gamma) = m(alpha, m(gamma, beta)).\
$
Divides:
$
small text{Divides Identity Term: the divides identity term is equal to 1.} normalsize\
i(d) = 1.\
quad\
small text{Division Identity:} enspace frac{alpha}{1} = alpha.normalsize\
d(alpha, i(d)) = alpha.\
quad\
small text{Self Division:} enspace frac{alpha}{alpha} = 1.normalsize\
alpha = beta Longleftrightarrow d(alpha, beta) = i(d).\
quad\
small text{Division Affine Identity:} enspace frac{alpha}{frac{beta}{gamma}} = frac{gamma}{frac{beta}{alpha}}.normalsize\
d(alpha, d(beta, gamma)) = d(gamma, d(beta, alpha)).\
$
Times:
$
small text{Multiplication Affine Identity:} enspace frac{alpha × beta}{gamma} = frac{alpha}{frac{gamma}{beta}}.normalsize\
d(t(alpha, beta), gamma) = d(alpha, d(gamma, beta)).\
$
We observe that the pair of divides and times operators are defined exactly the same way as the pair of minus and plus operators, but with different identity terms, and with a minus identity restriction on the multiplier subdomain of the divides function.
The symmetry established between the pairs of operators $(-, +)$ and $(/, ×)$ allows the following pairs of properties to be proven for both properties in every pair by proving it for a single property.
The following properties are established for any pair of operator functions $(f, g)$, which corresponds to the pairs $(-, +)$ and $(/, ×)$. Furthermore, the term reverse is used to refer to the opposite for the $(-, +)$ pair and to the inverse for the $(/, ×)$ pair.
Proofs for the $(-, +)$ pair can be found on this notebook.
Anticommutativity: $f(alpha, beta) = f(i(f), f(beta, alpha).$
$
alpha - beta = -(beta - alpha).\
quad\
displaystyle frac{alpha}{beta} = frac{1}{frac{beta}{alpha}}.\
$
Double Reverse Identity: $alpha = f(i(f), f(i(f), alpha)).$
$
alpha = -(-alpha).\
quad\
displaystyle alpha = frac{1}{frac{1}{alpha}}.\
$
Associative Commutativity: $f(f(alpha, beta), gamma) = f(f(alpha, gamma), beta).$
$
(alpha - beta) - gamma = (alpha - gamma) - beta.\
quad\
displaystyle frac{frac{alpha}{beta}}{gamma} = frac{frac{alpha}{gamma}}{beta}.\
$
Affine Equivalence: $f(alpha, beta) = gamma Longleftrightarrow f(alpha, gamma) = beta.$
$
alpha - beta = gamma Longleftrightarrow alpha - gamma = beta.\
quad\
displaystyle frac{alpha}{beta} = gamma Longleftrightarrow frac{alpha}{gamma} = beta.\
$
Identity Element: $g(alpha, i(f)) = alpha.$
$
alpha + 0 = alpha.\
quad\
alpha × 1 = alpha.\
$
Dual Substitution: $g(alpha, beta) = f(alpha, f(i(f), beta)).$
$
alpha + beta = alpha - (-beta).\
quad\
alpha × beta = frac{alpha}{frac{1}{beta}}.\
$
Dual Equivalence: $alpha = g(beta, gamma) Longleftrightarrow beta = f(alpha, gamma).$
$
alpha = beta + gamma Longleftrightarrow beta = alpha - gamma.\
quad\
alpha = beta × gamma Longleftrightarrow beta = frac{alpha}{gamma}.\
$
Commutativity: $g(alpha, beta) = g(beta, alpha).$
$
alpha + beta = beta + alpha.\
quad\
alpha × beta = beta × alpha.\
$
Associativity: $g(g(alpha, beta), gamma) = g(alpha, g(beta, gamma)).$
$
(alpha + beta) + gamma = alpha + (beta + gamma).\
quad\
(alpha × beta) × gamma = alpha × (beta × gamma).\
$
Dual Identity: $(g(f(alpha, beta), beta) = alpha) land (f(g(alpha, beta), beta) = alpha).$
$
((alpha - beta) + beta = alpha) land ((alpha + beta) - beta = alpha).\
quad\
displaystyle (frac{alpha}{gamma} × beta = alpha) land (frac{alpha × beta}{beta} = alpha).\
$
abstract-algebra arithmetic
abstract-algebra arithmetic
edited 28 mins ago
asked 1 hour ago
ismael
17917
17917
1
There is a mistake in the anticommutativity part for subtraction
– Slugger
1 hour ago
Have you heard of groups?
– jgon
1 hour ago
@Slugger Sorry for the mistake and thanks a lot for the fix!
– ismael
1 hour ago
@ismael No problem! You also say that "the only main difference between them is their identity elements (0 and 1 respectively)", but keep in mind that another significant difference is that multiplicative inverses are not defined for all numbers, i.e., for zero
– Slugger
1 hour ago
@jgon Yes, thank you very much. But this does not really answer my question. Also, I am trying to study these properties without relying on the axioms required for set theory. Therefore, I prefer working with types whenever possible.
– ismael
1 hour ago
|
show 6 more comments
1
There is a mistake in the anticommutativity part for subtraction
– Slugger
1 hour ago
Have you heard of groups?
– jgon
1 hour ago
@Slugger Sorry for the mistake and thanks a lot for the fix!
– ismael
1 hour ago
@ismael No problem! You also say that "the only main difference between them is their identity elements (0 and 1 respectively)", but keep in mind that another significant difference is that multiplicative inverses are not defined for all numbers, i.e., for zero
– Slugger
1 hour ago
@jgon Yes, thank you very much. But this does not really answer my question. Also, I am trying to study these properties without relying on the axioms required for set theory. Therefore, I prefer working with types whenever possible.
– ismael
1 hour ago
1
1
There is a mistake in the anticommutativity part for subtraction
– Slugger
1 hour ago
There is a mistake in the anticommutativity part for subtraction
– Slugger
1 hour ago
Have you heard of groups?
– jgon
1 hour ago
Have you heard of groups?
– jgon
1 hour ago
@Slugger Sorry for the mistake and thanks a lot for the fix!
– ismael
1 hour ago
@Slugger Sorry for the mistake and thanks a lot for the fix!
– ismael
1 hour ago
@ismael No problem! You also say that "the only main difference between them is their identity elements (0 and 1 respectively)", but keep in mind that another significant difference is that multiplicative inverses are not defined for all numbers, i.e., for zero
– Slugger
1 hour ago
@ismael No problem! You also say that "the only main difference between them is their identity elements (0 and 1 respectively)", but keep in mind that another significant difference is that multiplicative inverses are not defined for all numbers, i.e., for zero
– Slugger
1 hour ago
@jgon Yes, thank you very much. But this does not really answer my question. Also, I am trying to study these properties without relying on the axioms required for set theory. Therefore, I prefer working with types whenever possible.
– ismael
1 hour ago
@jgon Yes, thank you very much. But this does not really answer my question. Also, I am trying to study these properties without relying on the axioms required for set theory. Therefore, I prefer working with types whenever possible.
– ismael
1 hour ago
|
show 6 more comments
5 Answers
5
active
oldest
votes
What you're talking about is called a Field.
A Field is a set (say rational number $mathbb{Q}$, real numbers $mathbb{R}$, complex numbers $mathbb{C}$, etc...) together with two operations $(+,times)$ such that the following axioms holds:
The operations are associative: $a + (b + c) = (a + b) + c$ and $a cdot (b cdot c) = (a cdot b) $
The operations are commutative: $a+b=b+a$ and $acdot b=bcdot a$
Each of the operations has it's own identity element $(0,1)$. Formally, there exist two different elements $0$ and $1$ such that $a + 0 = a$ and $a · 1 = a$.
And each of the operations admits an "inverse" (i.e. we have $(-,/)$). That is,
For every $a$, there exists an element denoted $−a$, such that $a + (−a) = 0$. Similarly for every $anot = 0$ there exists an element, often denoted by $a^{-1}$ or $1/a$ such that $acdot a^{-1}=1$.
Finally there is one more axiom which associate between the additive and multiplicative notion. It's called the distributivity and it says that $a cdot (b + c) = (a cdot b) + (a cdot c)$.
We have many fields some of them are finite and some are infinite. In my opinion the best example for a finite field would be $mathbb{F}_p$ - the field of $p$-elements with addition and multiplication modulo $p$, you can read about it and more finite fields here. The most useful infinite fields (Again in my opinion) are the rational numbers, the real numbers and the complex numbers with the usual addition and multiplication. The important part however is that and every field satisfies all of the properties that you mentioned in your question.
Note that I removed quantifiers from the definitions to make them simpler, for the complete and correct axioms of a field please click the link in the first line.
Yes indeed, if you apply these properties to set theory, you get a field, but I am trying to study these properties without having to rely on the axioms of set theory. Also, I am looking for a theory that would provide an extensive analysis of families of operators defined with different values for the identity elements. Can values other than $0$ and $1$ be used? And if so, what kind of operators/functions do they introduce? And how do these functions relate to each other (in the same way that $e$ and $ln$ relate to each other)?
– ismael
1 hour ago
@ismael About your first sentence, I really don't know anything mathematical that doesn't rely on the axioms of set theory. About the second sentence, we just denote the identity elements as $0$ and $1$, I guess you can give them different names but this would be unnecessary. I don't understand your last sentence, what kind of operators or functions do you expect that they will introduce? How are $e$ and $ln$ relevant here?
– Yanko
1 hour ago
If you take a finitist approach and use type theory instead of set theory, you do not need the axioms of set theory. This makes it harder to work with $mathbb{R}$, but things go really smoothly with $mathbb{Q}$. As far as identity element (or should I say identity term?) values are concerned, I am calling $0$ the initial object of my underlying coinductive type and $1$ the successor of $0$, with $successor$ being my coinductive operator. Now, I wonder what the operator defined like minus and divides would look like with $-1$ as identity term.
– ismael
1 hour ago
It is not at all clear what you are asking that isnt covered in any basic abstract algebra class. No one can give you an answer if you can not form an actual question.
– fleablood
1 hour ago
@Yanko Using the terminology of set theory for clarity sake, if you have a group with (-, +) and a field with [(-, +), (/, ×)], what do you have when you add a new pair of operators (@, #) with @ defined using an element other than 0 and 1 as identity element (say -1 for example)? Is there a name for such an algebraic structure?
– ismael
1 hour ago
|
show 1 more comment
Since you're interested in type theory and say that you therefore want an element free perspective, I'll give you the categorical perspective.
In category theory, we can define group objects in a category $C$ with finite products (including the terminal object, $*$) as an object $G$ with $mu : Gtimes G to G$ (a binary operator), $e: * to G$ (a nullary operator), and $i : Gto G$ (a unary operator) satisfying the following relations, where $Delta_G : Gto Gtimes G$ is the diagonal map and $tau_G : Gto *$ is the map to the terminal object:
Associativity:
$$mucirc (mutimes newcommandid{operatorname{id}}id) = mucirc (idtimes mu) :Gtimes Gtimes G to G$$
Identity:
$$mucirc (idtimes e)=mucirc (e times id)=id : Gtimes G$$
Inverses:
$$mucirc (idtimes i) circ Delta_G = mucirc (itimes id) circ Delta_G = ecirc tau_G : Gto G$$
Now this axiomatization is equivalent to the axiomatization you've given in your question, except that instead of inversion, you've given division as the primitive operation.
To get your data, we define division as $d=mu circ (id times i)$.
Conversely, given division $d: Gtimes Gto G$, we define $i$ by $i=dcirc (etimes id)$.
Your axiomatization gives associativity and identity for free, plus also commutativity (so you're technically axiomatizing abelian groups).
Then your "dual identity" can be phrased $$mucirc (dtimes id) circ (id times Delta_G) = dcirc (mu times id)circ (id times Delta_G) = id times tau_G : Gtimes Gto G $$
Composing with $etimes id$ we get the identity
$$mucirc (dtimes id) circ (idtimes Delta_G) circ (etimes id) =
mucirc (dtimes id)circ (etimes idtimes id)circ Delta_G = mucirc (itimes id)circ Delta_G=etimes tau_G,$$
which is half of the inverses identity, and the other half we get is:
$$dcirc (mutimes id) circ (idtimes Delta_G) circ (etimes id) =
dcirc (mutimes id)circ (etimes idtimes id)circ Delta_G = dcirc Delta_G=ecirc tau_G,$$
so we just need to check $d = mucirc (id times i)$, and this follows from your
double reverse and dual substitution identities.
(We get $alpha + (-beta) = alpha - (-(-beta)) = alpha - beta$).
Conclusion
All of the properties you've listed follow from the fact that the operations you've chosen define abelian groups.
Thus the reason the triples of operators (don't forget the identity) are so similar is that they each define abelian groups.
Edit:
It's now a bit more clear to me what you're asking about. You also are interested in the relationship between these pairs/triples of operators, and how to possibly add another pair/triple.
In which case I feel the need to point out that fields don't come with two pairs of operations.
It's actually a bit easier to see this in the case of (commutative) rings.
For a general commutative ring $R$ define $a/b = acdot b^{-1}$ when $b$ is invertible.
Then the collection of all invertible elements of $R$, denoted $R^times$ forms a group, and it has identity $1$, the usual multiplication as multiplication, and the division just defined gives the division operation.
Now it is never the case that $R^times=R$, as sets, since $0$ is never invertible. Thus the triple of operations $(1,*,/)$ is never actually a triple of operations on $R$, but rather a triple of operations on the related object $R^times$.
In the very special case of fields, $R^times = Rsetminus{0}$, but for say the integers, we have $Bbb{Z}^times = {1,-1}$.
Also there is an additional axiom relating the operations $+$ and $*$, the distributive law.
Thus it's not clear what you mean by adding another triple of operations.
The two triples of operations already discussed aren't defined on the same set/type to begin with, so it's not quite clear how you'd be adding a third.
Also even if you did construct a related type on which to define a third operation, this third operation should relate to the previous two in some way.
In mathematics, there are examples of rings with additional operations (though none that I can think of that form an abelian group), such as differential graded algebras, but the third operation always relates to the prior two in some way.
Thank you so much for this explanation! I really need to dig into category theory (and probably homotopy type theory as well while I am at it). Also, sorry for the confusion regarding elements and terms. I have fixed it in the original post.
– ismael
33 mins ago
@ismael I've edited in an additional section in response to your edits
– jgon
6 mins ago
add a comment |
$log$ turns multiplication and division into addition and subtraction. The precise statement is that $log: mathbb R^+ to mathbb R$ is a group isomorphism, whose inverse is $exp$.
Excellent point, but this is more a corollary rather than a justification. And the definition of such functions for the pair of identity elements $(0, 1)$ makes me wonder what functions could be defined with other pairs or additional operators defined with other identity elements like $-1$, $e$, or $pi$.
– ismael
1 hour ago
add a comment |
How do you define these operations? If it's the primary-school way on real numbers, it follows from the facts that (i) reals form an Abelian group under $+$, its identity element famously named $0$, and (ii) reals $ne 0$ form an Abelian group under $times$. (Note this guarantees many similarities follow from group theory.) This, together with $atimes (b+c)=atimes b+atimes c$ (we say $times$ distributes over $+$), defines a field. Maths has a lot of groups, and a lot of fields; and where you have fields, you have two very similar operations.
I define them on top of a coinductive type as outlined in this notabook.
– ismael
1 hour ago
add a comment |
I think what's going on is this:
Suppose you have any binary relation $star$ making $X$ an abelian group. One way to express the relation is that it is a subset $Ssubseteq (Xtimes X)times X$ where $astar b=c$ iff $((a,b),c)in S$.
You can immediately form a new relation $S'={((c,a),b)mid (a,b,c)in S}$, and that describes a different binary operation. The fact that $S$ was formed from an abelian group operation allows you to say that this actually is a function.
And you can repeat this again to get $S''={((b,c),a)mid (a,b,c)in S}$, but it isn't as obvious that it is a function from it's origin from $S'$, but we can appeal again to $S$ again to prove it is a function.
Repeating the trick a third time gets you back to $S$.
If you take the special case where $star$ is addition, you'll find that $S'$ is subtraction where the thing subtracted is on the right, and $S''$ is like subtraction where the thing subtracted is on the left.
All this means, I think, is that the binary operations for some groups that we are all very familiar with can be translated to this new funky ordering, and because of the group properties contained in $S$, you will have a standard set of properties available in $S'$ (and also perhaps a slightly different set for $S''$, I didn't check).
My gut feeling is that the set of group axioms on $S'$ is equivalent in some sense to the abeilan group axioms encompassed in $S$, so that we really haven't learned anything new, really, we've just rewritten all the addition in terms of subtraction, and all the division in terms of multiplication. It does not feel like there is anything significant in this process.
Well, I am not so sure. First, I am not using set theory, I am using coinductive type theory, therefore some axioms of set theory are not necessary. Second, by defining subtraction before addition, I can deal with measures like temperatures that do not support addition (this is a very big deal for physicists and statisticians). Third, my real question is related to the values picked for the identity terms: what happens when these values are not $(0, 1)$? Or what happens when you add a third pair of operators with a third identity term (say -1)? Has anyone worked on this yet?
– ismael
59 mins ago
1
I don't understand your first and third points. I think I understand your second point, and I'm suggesting that even though that is fine, it probably amounts to the same thing as addition in the end.
– rschwieb
58 mins ago
I don’t think it does. While you can add a temperature delta to a temperature, you cannot add two temperature. This suggests that the addition operator should not have the cartesian product of the same set as domain, but the cartesian product of a type that does not support addition with a type that does support addition (I’m not sure that talking about cartesian product for types makes perfect sense, but this is a totally different subject). This kind of hybrid domain is not allowed by groups or fields unfortunately...
– ismael
55 mins ago
@ismael I'm not sure I agree with your specific example, that you can't add temperatures, but it sounds like you're talking about the idea of an affine space. Also usually the Cartesian product of types is the type of pairs. E.g., in Haskell notation for algebraic data types, the cartesian product ofa
andb
isPair a b
, wheredata Pair a b = Pair a b
. (Although in Haskell, you would usually just use the built-in type(a,b)
).
– jgon
1 min ago
add a comment |
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What you're talking about is called a Field.
A Field is a set (say rational number $mathbb{Q}$, real numbers $mathbb{R}$, complex numbers $mathbb{C}$, etc...) together with two operations $(+,times)$ such that the following axioms holds:
The operations are associative: $a + (b + c) = (a + b) + c$ and $a cdot (b cdot c) = (a cdot b) $
The operations are commutative: $a+b=b+a$ and $acdot b=bcdot a$
Each of the operations has it's own identity element $(0,1)$. Formally, there exist two different elements $0$ and $1$ such that $a + 0 = a$ and $a · 1 = a$.
And each of the operations admits an "inverse" (i.e. we have $(-,/)$). That is,
For every $a$, there exists an element denoted $−a$, such that $a + (−a) = 0$. Similarly for every $anot = 0$ there exists an element, often denoted by $a^{-1}$ or $1/a$ such that $acdot a^{-1}=1$.
Finally there is one more axiom which associate between the additive and multiplicative notion. It's called the distributivity and it says that $a cdot (b + c) = (a cdot b) + (a cdot c)$.
We have many fields some of them are finite and some are infinite. In my opinion the best example for a finite field would be $mathbb{F}_p$ - the field of $p$-elements with addition and multiplication modulo $p$, you can read about it and more finite fields here. The most useful infinite fields (Again in my opinion) are the rational numbers, the real numbers and the complex numbers with the usual addition and multiplication. The important part however is that and every field satisfies all of the properties that you mentioned in your question.
Note that I removed quantifiers from the definitions to make them simpler, for the complete and correct axioms of a field please click the link in the first line.
Yes indeed, if you apply these properties to set theory, you get a field, but I am trying to study these properties without having to rely on the axioms of set theory. Also, I am looking for a theory that would provide an extensive analysis of families of operators defined with different values for the identity elements. Can values other than $0$ and $1$ be used? And if so, what kind of operators/functions do they introduce? And how do these functions relate to each other (in the same way that $e$ and $ln$ relate to each other)?
– ismael
1 hour ago
@ismael About your first sentence, I really don't know anything mathematical that doesn't rely on the axioms of set theory. About the second sentence, we just denote the identity elements as $0$ and $1$, I guess you can give them different names but this would be unnecessary. I don't understand your last sentence, what kind of operators or functions do you expect that they will introduce? How are $e$ and $ln$ relevant here?
– Yanko
1 hour ago
If you take a finitist approach and use type theory instead of set theory, you do not need the axioms of set theory. This makes it harder to work with $mathbb{R}$, but things go really smoothly with $mathbb{Q}$. As far as identity element (or should I say identity term?) values are concerned, I am calling $0$ the initial object of my underlying coinductive type and $1$ the successor of $0$, with $successor$ being my coinductive operator. Now, I wonder what the operator defined like minus and divides would look like with $-1$ as identity term.
– ismael
1 hour ago
It is not at all clear what you are asking that isnt covered in any basic abstract algebra class. No one can give you an answer if you can not form an actual question.
– fleablood
1 hour ago
@Yanko Using the terminology of set theory for clarity sake, if you have a group with (-, +) and a field with [(-, +), (/, ×)], what do you have when you add a new pair of operators (@, #) with @ defined using an element other than 0 and 1 as identity element (say -1 for example)? Is there a name for such an algebraic structure?
– ismael
1 hour ago
|
show 1 more comment
What you're talking about is called a Field.
A Field is a set (say rational number $mathbb{Q}$, real numbers $mathbb{R}$, complex numbers $mathbb{C}$, etc...) together with two operations $(+,times)$ such that the following axioms holds:
The operations are associative: $a + (b + c) = (a + b) + c$ and $a cdot (b cdot c) = (a cdot b) $
The operations are commutative: $a+b=b+a$ and $acdot b=bcdot a$
Each of the operations has it's own identity element $(0,1)$. Formally, there exist two different elements $0$ and $1$ such that $a + 0 = a$ and $a · 1 = a$.
And each of the operations admits an "inverse" (i.e. we have $(-,/)$). That is,
For every $a$, there exists an element denoted $−a$, such that $a + (−a) = 0$. Similarly for every $anot = 0$ there exists an element, often denoted by $a^{-1}$ or $1/a$ such that $acdot a^{-1}=1$.
Finally there is one more axiom which associate between the additive and multiplicative notion. It's called the distributivity and it says that $a cdot (b + c) = (a cdot b) + (a cdot c)$.
We have many fields some of them are finite and some are infinite. In my opinion the best example for a finite field would be $mathbb{F}_p$ - the field of $p$-elements with addition and multiplication modulo $p$, you can read about it and more finite fields here. The most useful infinite fields (Again in my opinion) are the rational numbers, the real numbers and the complex numbers with the usual addition and multiplication. The important part however is that and every field satisfies all of the properties that you mentioned in your question.
Note that I removed quantifiers from the definitions to make them simpler, for the complete and correct axioms of a field please click the link in the first line.
Yes indeed, if you apply these properties to set theory, you get a field, but I am trying to study these properties without having to rely on the axioms of set theory. Also, I am looking for a theory that would provide an extensive analysis of families of operators defined with different values for the identity elements. Can values other than $0$ and $1$ be used? And if so, what kind of operators/functions do they introduce? And how do these functions relate to each other (in the same way that $e$ and $ln$ relate to each other)?
– ismael
1 hour ago
@ismael About your first sentence, I really don't know anything mathematical that doesn't rely on the axioms of set theory. About the second sentence, we just denote the identity elements as $0$ and $1$, I guess you can give them different names but this would be unnecessary. I don't understand your last sentence, what kind of operators or functions do you expect that they will introduce? How are $e$ and $ln$ relevant here?
– Yanko
1 hour ago
If you take a finitist approach and use type theory instead of set theory, you do not need the axioms of set theory. This makes it harder to work with $mathbb{R}$, but things go really smoothly with $mathbb{Q}$. As far as identity element (or should I say identity term?) values are concerned, I am calling $0$ the initial object of my underlying coinductive type and $1$ the successor of $0$, with $successor$ being my coinductive operator. Now, I wonder what the operator defined like minus and divides would look like with $-1$ as identity term.
– ismael
1 hour ago
It is not at all clear what you are asking that isnt covered in any basic abstract algebra class. No one can give you an answer if you can not form an actual question.
– fleablood
1 hour ago
@Yanko Using the terminology of set theory for clarity sake, if you have a group with (-, +) and a field with [(-, +), (/, ×)], what do you have when you add a new pair of operators (@, #) with @ defined using an element other than 0 and 1 as identity element (say -1 for example)? Is there a name for such an algebraic structure?
– ismael
1 hour ago
|
show 1 more comment
What you're talking about is called a Field.
A Field is a set (say rational number $mathbb{Q}$, real numbers $mathbb{R}$, complex numbers $mathbb{C}$, etc...) together with two operations $(+,times)$ such that the following axioms holds:
The operations are associative: $a + (b + c) = (a + b) + c$ and $a cdot (b cdot c) = (a cdot b) $
The operations are commutative: $a+b=b+a$ and $acdot b=bcdot a$
Each of the operations has it's own identity element $(0,1)$. Formally, there exist two different elements $0$ and $1$ such that $a + 0 = a$ and $a · 1 = a$.
And each of the operations admits an "inverse" (i.e. we have $(-,/)$). That is,
For every $a$, there exists an element denoted $−a$, such that $a + (−a) = 0$. Similarly for every $anot = 0$ there exists an element, often denoted by $a^{-1}$ or $1/a$ such that $acdot a^{-1}=1$.
Finally there is one more axiom which associate between the additive and multiplicative notion. It's called the distributivity and it says that $a cdot (b + c) = (a cdot b) + (a cdot c)$.
We have many fields some of them are finite and some are infinite. In my opinion the best example for a finite field would be $mathbb{F}_p$ - the field of $p$-elements with addition and multiplication modulo $p$, you can read about it and more finite fields here. The most useful infinite fields (Again in my opinion) are the rational numbers, the real numbers and the complex numbers with the usual addition and multiplication. The important part however is that and every field satisfies all of the properties that you mentioned in your question.
Note that I removed quantifiers from the definitions to make them simpler, for the complete and correct axioms of a field please click the link in the first line.
What you're talking about is called a Field.
A Field is a set (say rational number $mathbb{Q}$, real numbers $mathbb{R}$, complex numbers $mathbb{C}$, etc...) together with two operations $(+,times)$ such that the following axioms holds:
The operations are associative: $a + (b + c) = (a + b) + c$ and $a cdot (b cdot c) = (a cdot b) $
The operations are commutative: $a+b=b+a$ and $acdot b=bcdot a$
Each of the operations has it's own identity element $(0,1)$. Formally, there exist two different elements $0$ and $1$ such that $a + 0 = a$ and $a · 1 = a$.
And each of the operations admits an "inverse" (i.e. we have $(-,/)$). That is,
For every $a$, there exists an element denoted $−a$, such that $a + (−a) = 0$. Similarly for every $anot = 0$ there exists an element, often denoted by $a^{-1}$ or $1/a$ such that $acdot a^{-1}=1$.
Finally there is one more axiom which associate between the additive and multiplicative notion. It's called the distributivity and it says that $a cdot (b + c) = (a cdot b) + (a cdot c)$.
We have many fields some of them are finite and some are infinite. In my opinion the best example for a finite field would be $mathbb{F}_p$ - the field of $p$-elements with addition and multiplication modulo $p$, you can read about it and more finite fields here. The most useful infinite fields (Again in my opinion) are the rational numbers, the real numbers and the complex numbers with the usual addition and multiplication. The important part however is that and every field satisfies all of the properties that you mentioned in your question.
Note that I removed quantifiers from the definitions to make them simpler, for the complete and correct axioms of a field please click the link in the first line.
edited 1 hour ago
answered 1 hour ago
Yanko
6,154724
6,154724
Yes indeed, if you apply these properties to set theory, you get a field, but I am trying to study these properties without having to rely on the axioms of set theory. Also, I am looking for a theory that would provide an extensive analysis of families of operators defined with different values for the identity elements. Can values other than $0$ and $1$ be used? And if so, what kind of operators/functions do they introduce? And how do these functions relate to each other (in the same way that $e$ and $ln$ relate to each other)?
– ismael
1 hour ago
@ismael About your first sentence, I really don't know anything mathematical that doesn't rely on the axioms of set theory. About the second sentence, we just denote the identity elements as $0$ and $1$, I guess you can give them different names but this would be unnecessary. I don't understand your last sentence, what kind of operators or functions do you expect that they will introduce? How are $e$ and $ln$ relevant here?
– Yanko
1 hour ago
If you take a finitist approach and use type theory instead of set theory, you do not need the axioms of set theory. This makes it harder to work with $mathbb{R}$, but things go really smoothly with $mathbb{Q}$. As far as identity element (or should I say identity term?) values are concerned, I am calling $0$ the initial object of my underlying coinductive type and $1$ the successor of $0$, with $successor$ being my coinductive operator. Now, I wonder what the operator defined like minus and divides would look like with $-1$ as identity term.
– ismael
1 hour ago
It is not at all clear what you are asking that isnt covered in any basic abstract algebra class. No one can give you an answer if you can not form an actual question.
– fleablood
1 hour ago
@Yanko Using the terminology of set theory for clarity sake, if you have a group with (-, +) and a field with [(-, +), (/, ×)], what do you have when you add a new pair of operators (@, #) with @ defined using an element other than 0 and 1 as identity element (say -1 for example)? Is there a name for such an algebraic structure?
– ismael
1 hour ago
|
show 1 more comment
Yes indeed, if you apply these properties to set theory, you get a field, but I am trying to study these properties without having to rely on the axioms of set theory. Also, I am looking for a theory that would provide an extensive analysis of families of operators defined with different values for the identity elements. Can values other than $0$ and $1$ be used? And if so, what kind of operators/functions do they introduce? And how do these functions relate to each other (in the same way that $e$ and $ln$ relate to each other)?
– ismael
1 hour ago
@ismael About your first sentence, I really don't know anything mathematical that doesn't rely on the axioms of set theory. About the second sentence, we just denote the identity elements as $0$ and $1$, I guess you can give them different names but this would be unnecessary. I don't understand your last sentence, what kind of operators or functions do you expect that they will introduce? How are $e$ and $ln$ relevant here?
– Yanko
1 hour ago
If you take a finitist approach and use type theory instead of set theory, you do not need the axioms of set theory. This makes it harder to work with $mathbb{R}$, but things go really smoothly with $mathbb{Q}$. As far as identity element (or should I say identity term?) values are concerned, I am calling $0$ the initial object of my underlying coinductive type and $1$ the successor of $0$, with $successor$ being my coinductive operator. Now, I wonder what the operator defined like minus and divides would look like with $-1$ as identity term.
– ismael
1 hour ago
It is not at all clear what you are asking that isnt covered in any basic abstract algebra class. No one can give you an answer if you can not form an actual question.
– fleablood
1 hour ago
@Yanko Using the terminology of set theory for clarity sake, if you have a group with (-, +) and a field with [(-, +), (/, ×)], what do you have when you add a new pair of operators (@, #) with @ defined using an element other than 0 and 1 as identity element (say -1 for example)? Is there a name for such an algebraic structure?
– ismael
1 hour ago
Yes indeed, if you apply these properties to set theory, you get a field, but I am trying to study these properties without having to rely on the axioms of set theory. Also, I am looking for a theory that would provide an extensive analysis of families of operators defined with different values for the identity elements. Can values other than $0$ and $1$ be used? And if so, what kind of operators/functions do they introduce? And how do these functions relate to each other (in the same way that $e$ and $ln$ relate to each other)?
– ismael
1 hour ago
Yes indeed, if you apply these properties to set theory, you get a field, but I am trying to study these properties without having to rely on the axioms of set theory. Also, I am looking for a theory that would provide an extensive analysis of families of operators defined with different values for the identity elements. Can values other than $0$ and $1$ be used? And if so, what kind of operators/functions do they introduce? And how do these functions relate to each other (in the same way that $e$ and $ln$ relate to each other)?
– ismael
1 hour ago
@ismael About your first sentence, I really don't know anything mathematical that doesn't rely on the axioms of set theory. About the second sentence, we just denote the identity elements as $0$ and $1$, I guess you can give them different names but this would be unnecessary. I don't understand your last sentence, what kind of operators or functions do you expect that they will introduce? How are $e$ and $ln$ relevant here?
– Yanko
1 hour ago
@ismael About your first sentence, I really don't know anything mathematical that doesn't rely on the axioms of set theory. About the second sentence, we just denote the identity elements as $0$ and $1$, I guess you can give them different names but this would be unnecessary. I don't understand your last sentence, what kind of operators or functions do you expect that they will introduce? How are $e$ and $ln$ relevant here?
– Yanko
1 hour ago
If you take a finitist approach and use type theory instead of set theory, you do not need the axioms of set theory. This makes it harder to work with $mathbb{R}$, but things go really smoothly with $mathbb{Q}$. As far as identity element (or should I say identity term?) values are concerned, I am calling $0$ the initial object of my underlying coinductive type and $1$ the successor of $0$, with $successor$ being my coinductive operator. Now, I wonder what the operator defined like minus and divides would look like with $-1$ as identity term.
– ismael
1 hour ago
If you take a finitist approach and use type theory instead of set theory, you do not need the axioms of set theory. This makes it harder to work with $mathbb{R}$, but things go really smoothly with $mathbb{Q}$. As far as identity element (or should I say identity term?) values are concerned, I am calling $0$ the initial object of my underlying coinductive type and $1$ the successor of $0$, with $successor$ being my coinductive operator. Now, I wonder what the operator defined like minus and divides would look like with $-1$ as identity term.
– ismael
1 hour ago
It is not at all clear what you are asking that isnt covered in any basic abstract algebra class. No one can give you an answer if you can not form an actual question.
– fleablood
1 hour ago
It is not at all clear what you are asking that isnt covered in any basic abstract algebra class. No one can give you an answer if you can not form an actual question.
– fleablood
1 hour ago
@Yanko Using the terminology of set theory for clarity sake, if you have a group with (-, +) and a field with [(-, +), (/, ×)], what do you have when you add a new pair of operators (@, #) with @ defined using an element other than 0 and 1 as identity element (say -1 for example)? Is there a name for such an algebraic structure?
– ismael
1 hour ago
@Yanko Using the terminology of set theory for clarity sake, if you have a group with (-, +) and a field with [(-, +), (/, ×)], what do you have when you add a new pair of operators (@, #) with @ defined using an element other than 0 and 1 as identity element (say -1 for example)? Is there a name for such an algebraic structure?
– ismael
1 hour ago
|
show 1 more comment
Since you're interested in type theory and say that you therefore want an element free perspective, I'll give you the categorical perspective.
In category theory, we can define group objects in a category $C$ with finite products (including the terminal object, $*$) as an object $G$ with $mu : Gtimes G to G$ (a binary operator), $e: * to G$ (a nullary operator), and $i : Gto G$ (a unary operator) satisfying the following relations, where $Delta_G : Gto Gtimes G$ is the diagonal map and $tau_G : Gto *$ is the map to the terminal object:
Associativity:
$$mucirc (mutimes newcommandid{operatorname{id}}id) = mucirc (idtimes mu) :Gtimes Gtimes G to G$$
Identity:
$$mucirc (idtimes e)=mucirc (e times id)=id : Gtimes G$$
Inverses:
$$mucirc (idtimes i) circ Delta_G = mucirc (itimes id) circ Delta_G = ecirc tau_G : Gto G$$
Now this axiomatization is equivalent to the axiomatization you've given in your question, except that instead of inversion, you've given division as the primitive operation.
To get your data, we define division as $d=mu circ (id times i)$.
Conversely, given division $d: Gtimes Gto G$, we define $i$ by $i=dcirc (etimes id)$.
Your axiomatization gives associativity and identity for free, plus also commutativity (so you're technically axiomatizing abelian groups).
Then your "dual identity" can be phrased $$mucirc (dtimes id) circ (id times Delta_G) = dcirc (mu times id)circ (id times Delta_G) = id times tau_G : Gtimes Gto G $$
Composing with $etimes id$ we get the identity
$$mucirc (dtimes id) circ (idtimes Delta_G) circ (etimes id) =
mucirc (dtimes id)circ (etimes idtimes id)circ Delta_G = mucirc (itimes id)circ Delta_G=etimes tau_G,$$
which is half of the inverses identity, and the other half we get is:
$$dcirc (mutimes id) circ (idtimes Delta_G) circ (etimes id) =
dcirc (mutimes id)circ (etimes idtimes id)circ Delta_G = dcirc Delta_G=ecirc tau_G,$$
so we just need to check $d = mucirc (id times i)$, and this follows from your
double reverse and dual substitution identities.
(We get $alpha + (-beta) = alpha - (-(-beta)) = alpha - beta$).
Conclusion
All of the properties you've listed follow from the fact that the operations you've chosen define abelian groups.
Thus the reason the triples of operators (don't forget the identity) are so similar is that they each define abelian groups.
Edit:
It's now a bit more clear to me what you're asking about. You also are interested in the relationship between these pairs/triples of operators, and how to possibly add another pair/triple.
In which case I feel the need to point out that fields don't come with two pairs of operations.
It's actually a bit easier to see this in the case of (commutative) rings.
For a general commutative ring $R$ define $a/b = acdot b^{-1}$ when $b$ is invertible.
Then the collection of all invertible elements of $R$, denoted $R^times$ forms a group, and it has identity $1$, the usual multiplication as multiplication, and the division just defined gives the division operation.
Now it is never the case that $R^times=R$, as sets, since $0$ is never invertible. Thus the triple of operations $(1,*,/)$ is never actually a triple of operations on $R$, but rather a triple of operations on the related object $R^times$.
In the very special case of fields, $R^times = Rsetminus{0}$, but for say the integers, we have $Bbb{Z}^times = {1,-1}$.
Also there is an additional axiom relating the operations $+$ and $*$, the distributive law.
Thus it's not clear what you mean by adding another triple of operations.
The two triples of operations already discussed aren't defined on the same set/type to begin with, so it's not quite clear how you'd be adding a third.
Also even if you did construct a related type on which to define a third operation, this third operation should relate to the previous two in some way.
In mathematics, there are examples of rings with additional operations (though none that I can think of that form an abelian group), such as differential graded algebras, but the third operation always relates to the prior two in some way.
Thank you so much for this explanation! I really need to dig into category theory (and probably homotopy type theory as well while I am at it). Also, sorry for the confusion regarding elements and terms. I have fixed it in the original post.
– ismael
33 mins ago
@ismael I've edited in an additional section in response to your edits
– jgon
6 mins ago
add a comment |
Since you're interested in type theory and say that you therefore want an element free perspective, I'll give you the categorical perspective.
In category theory, we can define group objects in a category $C$ with finite products (including the terminal object, $*$) as an object $G$ with $mu : Gtimes G to G$ (a binary operator), $e: * to G$ (a nullary operator), and $i : Gto G$ (a unary operator) satisfying the following relations, where $Delta_G : Gto Gtimes G$ is the diagonal map and $tau_G : Gto *$ is the map to the terminal object:
Associativity:
$$mucirc (mutimes newcommandid{operatorname{id}}id) = mucirc (idtimes mu) :Gtimes Gtimes G to G$$
Identity:
$$mucirc (idtimes e)=mucirc (e times id)=id : Gtimes G$$
Inverses:
$$mucirc (idtimes i) circ Delta_G = mucirc (itimes id) circ Delta_G = ecirc tau_G : Gto G$$
Now this axiomatization is equivalent to the axiomatization you've given in your question, except that instead of inversion, you've given division as the primitive operation.
To get your data, we define division as $d=mu circ (id times i)$.
Conversely, given division $d: Gtimes Gto G$, we define $i$ by $i=dcirc (etimes id)$.
Your axiomatization gives associativity and identity for free, plus also commutativity (so you're technically axiomatizing abelian groups).
Then your "dual identity" can be phrased $$mucirc (dtimes id) circ (id times Delta_G) = dcirc (mu times id)circ (id times Delta_G) = id times tau_G : Gtimes Gto G $$
Composing with $etimes id$ we get the identity
$$mucirc (dtimes id) circ (idtimes Delta_G) circ (etimes id) =
mucirc (dtimes id)circ (etimes idtimes id)circ Delta_G = mucirc (itimes id)circ Delta_G=etimes tau_G,$$
which is half of the inverses identity, and the other half we get is:
$$dcirc (mutimes id) circ (idtimes Delta_G) circ (etimes id) =
dcirc (mutimes id)circ (etimes idtimes id)circ Delta_G = dcirc Delta_G=ecirc tau_G,$$
so we just need to check $d = mucirc (id times i)$, and this follows from your
double reverse and dual substitution identities.
(We get $alpha + (-beta) = alpha - (-(-beta)) = alpha - beta$).
Conclusion
All of the properties you've listed follow from the fact that the operations you've chosen define abelian groups.
Thus the reason the triples of operators (don't forget the identity) are so similar is that they each define abelian groups.
Edit:
It's now a bit more clear to me what you're asking about. You also are interested in the relationship between these pairs/triples of operators, and how to possibly add another pair/triple.
In which case I feel the need to point out that fields don't come with two pairs of operations.
It's actually a bit easier to see this in the case of (commutative) rings.
For a general commutative ring $R$ define $a/b = acdot b^{-1}$ when $b$ is invertible.
Then the collection of all invertible elements of $R$, denoted $R^times$ forms a group, and it has identity $1$, the usual multiplication as multiplication, and the division just defined gives the division operation.
Now it is never the case that $R^times=R$, as sets, since $0$ is never invertible. Thus the triple of operations $(1,*,/)$ is never actually a triple of operations on $R$, but rather a triple of operations on the related object $R^times$.
In the very special case of fields, $R^times = Rsetminus{0}$, but for say the integers, we have $Bbb{Z}^times = {1,-1}$.
Also there is an additional axiom relating the operations $+$ and $*$, the distributive law.
Thus it's not clear what you mean by adding another triple of operations.
The two triples of operations already discussed aren't defined on the same set/type to begin with, so it's not quite clear how you'd be adding a third.
Also even if you did construct a related type on which to define a third operation, this third operation should relate to the previous two in some way.
In mathematics, there are examples of rings with additional operations (though none that I can think of that form an abelian group), such as differential graded algebras, but the third operation always relates to the prior two in some way.
Thank you so much for this explanation! I really need to dig into category theory (and probably homotopy type theory as well while I am at it). Also, sorry for the confusion regarding elements and terms. I have fixed it in the original post.
– ismael
33 mins ago
@ismael I've edited in an additional section in response to your edits
– jgon
6 mins ago
add a comment |
Since you're interested in type theory and say that you therefore want an element free perspective, I'll give you the categorical perspective.
In category theory, we can define group objects in a category $C$ with finite products (including the terminal object, $*$) as an object $G$ with $mu : Gtimes G to G$ (a binary operator), $e: * to G$ (a nullary operator), and $i : Gto G$ (a unary operator) satisfying the following relations, where $Delta_G : Gto Gtimes G$ is the diagonal map and $tau_G : Gto *$ is the map to the terminal object:
Associativity:
$$mucirc (mutimes newcommandid{operatorname{id}}id) = mucirc (idtimes mu) :Gtimes Gtimes G to G$$
Identity:
$$mucirc (idtimes e)=mucirc (e times id)=id : Gtimes G$$
Inverses:
$$mucirc (idtimes i) circ Delta_G = mucirc (itimes id) circ Delta_G = ecirc tau_G : Gto G$$
Now this axiomatization is equivalent to the axiomatization you've given in your question, except that instead of inversion, you've given division as the primitive operation.
To get your data, we define division as $d=mu circ (id times i)$.
Conversely, given division $d: Gtimes Gto G$, we define $i$ by $i=dcirc (etimes id)$.
Your axiomatization gives associativity and identity for free, plus also commutativity (so you're technically axiomatizing abelian groups).
Then your "dual identity" can be phrased $$mucirc (dtimes id) circ (id times Delta_G) = dcirc (mu times id)circ (id times Delta_G) = id times tau_G : Gtimes Gto G $$
Composing with $etimes id$ we get the identity
$$mucirc (dtimes id) circ (idtimes Delta_G) circ (etimes id) =
mucirc (dtimes id)circ (etimes idtimes id)circ Delta_G = mucirc (itimes id)circ Delta_G=etimes tau_G,$$
which is half of the inverses identity, and the other half we get is:
$$dcirc (mutimes id) circ (idtimes Delta_G) circ (etimes id) =
dcirc (mutimes id)circ (etimes idtimes id)circ Delta_G = dcirc Delta_G=ecirc tau_G,$$
so we just need to check $d = mucirc (id times i)$, and this follows from your
double reverse and dual substitution identities.
(We get $alpha + (-beta) = alpha - (-(-beta)) = alpha - beta$).
Conclusion
All of the properties you've listed follow from the fact that the operations you've chosen define abelian groups.
Thus the reason the triples of operators (don't forget the identity) are so similar is that they each define abelian groups.
Edit:
It's now a bit more clear to me what you're asking about. You also are interested in the relationship between these pairs/triples of operators, and how to possibly add another pair/triple.
In which case I feel the need to point out that fields don't come with two pairs of operations.
It's actually a bit easier to see this in the case of (commutative) rings.
For a general commutative ring $R$ define $a/b = acdot b^{-1}$ when $b$ is invertible.
Then the collection of all invertible elements of $R$, denoted $R^times$ forms a group, and it has identity $1$, the usual multiplication as multiplication, and the division just defined gives the division operation.
Now it is never the case that $R^times=R$, as sets, since $0$ is never invertible. Thus the triple of operations $(1,*,/)$ is never actually a triple of operations on $R$, but rather a triple of operations on the related object $R^times$.
In the very special case of fields, $R^times = Rsetminus{0}$, but for say the integers, we have $Bbb{Z}^times = {1,-1}$.
Also there is an additional axiom relating the operations $+$ and $*$, the distributive law.
Thus it's not clear what you mean by adding another triple of operations.
The two triples of operations already discussed aren't defined on the same set/type to begin with, so it's not quite clear how you'd be adding a third.
Also even if you did construct a related type on which to define a third operation, this third operation should relate to the previous two in some way.
In mathematics, there are examples of rings with additional operations (though none that I can think of that form an abelian group), such as differential graded algebras, but the third operation always relates to the prior two in some way.
Since you're interested in type theory and say that you therefore want an element free perspective, I'll give you the categorical perspective.
In category theory, we can define group objects in a category $C$ with finite products (including the terminal object, $*$) as an object $G$ with $mu : Gtimes G to G$ (a binary operator), $e: * to G$ (a nullary operator), and $i : Gto G$ (a unary operator) satisfying the following relations, where $Delta_G : Gto Gtimes G$ is the diagonal map and $tau_G : Gto *$ is the map to the terminal object:
Associativity:
$$mucirc (mutimes newcommandid{operatorname{id}}id) = mucirc (idtimes mu) :Gtimes Gtimes G to G$$
Identity:
$$mucirc (idtimes e)=mucirc (e times id)=id : Gtimes G$$
Inverses:
$$mucirc (idtimes i) circ Delta_G = mucirc (itimes id) circ Delta_G = ecirc tau_G : Gto G$$
Now this axiomatization is equivalent to the axiomatization you've given in your question, except that instead of inversion, you've given division as the primitive operation.
To get your data, we define division as $d=mu circ (id times i)$.
Conversely, given division $d: Gtimes Gto G$, we define $i$ by $i=dcirc (etimes id)$.
Your axiomatization gives associativity and identity for free, plus also commutativity (so you're technically axiomatizing abelian groups).
Then your "dual identity" can be phrased $$mucirc (dtimes id) circ (id times Delta_G) = dcirc (mu times id)circ (id times Delta_G) = id times tau_G : Gtimes Gto G $$
Composing with $etimes id$ we get the identity
$$mucirc (dtimes id) circ (idtimes Delta_G) circ (etimes id) =
mucirc (dtimes id)circ (etimes idtimes id)circ Delta_G = mucirc (itimes id)circ Delta_G=etimes tau_G,$$
which is half of the inverses identity, and the other half we get is:
$$dcirc (mutimes id) circ (idtimes Delta_G) circ (etimes id) =
dcirc (mutimes id)circ (etimes idtimes id)circ Delta_G = dcirc Delta_G=ecirc tau_G,$$
so we just need to check $d = mucirc (id times i)$, and this follows from your
double reverse and dual substitution identities.
(We get $alpha + (-beta) = alpha - (-(-beta)) = alpha - beta$).
Conclusion
All of the properties you've listed follow from the fact that the operations you've chosen define abelian groups.
Thus the reason the triples of operators (don't forget the identity) are so similar is that they each define abelian groups.
Edit:
It's now a bit more clear to me what you're asking about. You also are interested in the relationship between these pairs/triples of operators, and how to possibly add another pair/triple.
In which case I feel the need to point out that fields don't come with two pairs of operations.
It's actually a bit easier to see this in the case of (commutative) rings.
For a general commutative ring $R$ define $a/b = acdot b^{-1}$ when $b$ is invertible.
Then the collection of all invertible elements of $R$, denoted $R^times$ forms a group, and it has identity $1$, the usual multiplication as multiplication, and the division just defined gives the division operation.
Now it is never the case that $R^times=R$, as sets, since $0$ is never invertible. Thus the triple of operations $(1,*,/)$ is never actually a triple of operations on $R$, but rather a triple of operations on the related object $R^times$.
In the very special case of fields, $R^times = Rsetminus{0}$, but for say the integers, we have $Bbb{Z}^times = {1,-1}$.
Also there is an additional axiom relating the operations $+$ and $*$, the distributive law.
Thus it's not clear what you mean by adding another triple of operations.
The two triples of operations already discussed aren't defined on the same set/type to begin with, so it's not quite clear how you'd be adding a third.
Also even if you did construct a related type on which to define a third operation, this third operation should relate to the previous two in some way.
In mathematics, there are examples of rings with additional operations (though none that I can think of that form an abelian group), such as differential graded algebras, but the third operation always relates to the prior two in some way.
edited 6 mins ago
answered 46 mins ago
jgon
13k21941
13k21941
Thank you so much for this explanation! I really need to dig into category theory (and probably homotopy type theory as well while I am at it). Also, sorry for the confusion regarding elements and terms. I have fixed it in the original post.
– ismael
33 mins ago
@ismael I've edited in an additional section in response to your edits
– jgon
6 mins ago
add a comment |
Thank you so much for this explanation! I really need to dig into category theory (and probably homotopy type theory as well while I am at it). Also, sorry for the confusion regarding elements and terms. I have fixed it in the original post.
– ismael
33 mins ago
@ismael I've edited in an additional section in response to your edits
– jgon
6 mins ago
Thank you so much for this explanation! I really need to dig into category theory (and probably homotopy type theory as well while I am at it). Also, sorry for the confusion regarding elements and terms. I have fixed it in the original post.
– ismael
33 mins ago
Thank you so much for this explanation! I really need to dig into category theory (and probably homotopy type theory as well while I am at it). Also, sorry for the confusion regarding elements and terms. I have fixed it in the original post.
– ismael
33 mins ago
@ismael I've edited in an additional section in response to your edits
– jgon
6 mins ago
@ismael I've edited in an additional section in response to your edits
– jgon
6 mins ago
add a comment |
$log$ turns multiplication and division into addition and subtraction. The precise statement is that $log: mathbb R^+ to mathbb R$ is a group isomorphism, whose inverse is $exp$.
Excellent point, but this is more a corollary rather than a justification. And the definition of such functions for the pair of identity elements $(0, 1)$ makes me wonder what functions could be defined with other pairs or additional operators defined with other identity elements like $-1$, $e$, or $pi$.
– ismael
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$log$ turns multiplication and division into addition and subtraction. The precise statement is that $log: mathbb R^+ to mathbb R$ is a group isomorphism, whose inverse is $exp$.
Excellent point, but this is more a corollary rather than a justification. And the definition of such functions for the pair of identity elements $(0, 1)$ makes me wonder what functions could be defined with other pairs or additional operators defined with other identity elements like $-1$, $e$, or $pi$.
– ismael
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$log$ turns multiplication and division into addition and subtraction. The precise statement is that $log: mathbb R^+ to mathbb R$ is a group isomorphism, whose inverse is $exp$.
$log$ turns multiplication and division into addition and subtraction. The precise statement is that $log: mathbb R^+ to mathbb R$ is a group isomorphism, whose inverse is $exp$.
answered 1 hour ago
lhf
163k10167387
163k10167387
Excellent point, but this is more a corollary rather than a justification. And the definition of such functions for the pair of identity elements $(0, 1)$ makes me wonder what functions could be defined with other pairs or additional operators defined with other identity elements like $-1$, $e$, or $pi$.
– ismael
1 hour ago
add a comment |
Excellent point, but this is more a corollary rather than a justification. And the definition of such functions for the pair of identity elements $(0, 1)$ makes me wonder what functions could be defined with other pairs or additional operators defined with other identity elements like $-1$, $e$, or $pi$.
– ismael
1 hour ago
Excellent point, but this is more a corollary rather than a justification. And the definition of such functions for the pair of identity elements $(0, 1)$ makes me wonder what functions could be defined with other pairs or additional operators defined with other identity elements like $-1$, $e$, or $pi$.
– ismael
1 hour ago
Excellent point, but this is more a corollary rather than a justification. And the definition of such functions for the pair of identity elements $(0, 1)$ makes me wonder what functions could be defined with other pairs or additional operators defined with other identity elements like $-1$, $e$, or $pi$.
– ismael
1 hour ago
add a comment |
How do you define these operations? If it's the primary-school way on real numbers, it follows from the facts that (i) reals form an Abelian group under $+$, its identity element famously named $0$, and (ii) reals $ne 0$ form an Abelian group under $times$. (Note this guarantees many similarities follow from group theory.) This, together with $atimes (b+c)=atimes b+atimes c$ (we say $times$ distributes over $+$), defines a field. Maths has a lot of groups, and a lot of fields; and where you have fields, you have two very similar operations.
I define them on top of a coinductive type as outlined in this notabook.
– ismael
1 hour ago
add a comment |
How do you define these operations? If it's the primary-school way on real numbers, it follows from the facts that (i) reals form an Abelian group under $+$, its identity element famously named $0$, and (ii) reals $ne 0$ form an Abelian group under $times$. (Note this guarantees many similarities follow from group theory.) This, together with $atimes (b+c)=atimes b+atimes c$ (we say $times$ distributes over $+$), defines a field. Maths has a lot of groups, and a lot of fields; and where you have fields, you have two very similar operations.
I define them on top of a coinductive type as outlined in this notabook.
– ismael
1 hour ago
add a comment |
How do you define these operations? If it's the primary-school way on real numbers, it follows from the facts that (i) reals form an Abelian group under $+$, its identity element famously named $0$, and (ii) reals $ne 0$ form an Abelian group under $times$. (Note this guarantees many similarities follow from group theory.) This, together with $atimes (b+c)=atimes b+atimes c$ (we say $times$ distributes over $+$), defines a field. Maths has a lot of groups, and a lot of fields; and where you have fields, you have two very similar operations.
How do you define these operations? If it's the primary-school way on real numbers, it follows from the facts that (i) reals form an Abelian group under $+$, its identity element famously named $0$, and (ii) reals $ne 0$ form an Abelian group under $times$. (Note this guarantees many similarities follow from group theory.) This, together with $atimes (b+c)=atimes b+atimes c$ (we say $times$ distributes over $+$), defines a field. Maths has a lot of groups, and a lot of fields; and where you have fields, you have two very similar operations.
answered 1 hour ago
J.G.
23.1k22137
23.1k22137
I define them on top of a coinductive type as outlined in this notabook.
– ismael
1 hour ago
add a comment |
I define them on top of a coinductive type as outlined in this notabook.
– ismael
1 hour ago
I define them on top of a coinductive type as outlined in this notabook.
– ismael
1 hour ago
I define them on top of a coinductive type as outlined in this notabook.
– ismael
1 hour ago
add a comment |
I think what's going on is this:
Suppose you have any binary relation $star$ making $X$ an abelian group. One way to express the relation is that it is a subset $Ssubseteq (Xtimes X)times X$ where $astar b=c$ iff $((a,b),c)in S$.
You can immediately form a new relation $S'={((c,a),b)mid (a,b,c)in S}$, and that describes a different binary operation. The fact that $S$ was formed from an abelian group operation allows you to say that this actually is a function.
And you can repeat this again to get $S''={((b,c),a)mid (a,b,c)in S}$, but it isn't as obvious that it is a function from it's origin from $S'$, but we can appeal again to $S$ again to prove it is a function.
Repeating the trick a third time gets you back to $S$.
If you take the special case where $star$ is addition, you'll find that $S'$ is subtraction where the thing subtracted is on the right, and $S''$ is like subtraction where the thing subtracted is on the left.
All this means, I think, is that the binary operations for some groups that we are all very familiar with can be translated to this new funky ordering, and because of the group properties contained in $S$, you will have a standard set of properties available in $S'$ (and also perhaps a slightly different set for $S''$, I didn't check).
My gut feeling is that the set of group axioms on $S'$ is equivalent in some sense to the abeilan group axioms encompassed in $S$, so that we really haven't learned anything new, really, we've just rewritten all the addition in terms of subtraction, and all the division in terms of multiplication. It does not feel like there is anything significant in this process.
Well, I am not so sure. First, I am not using set theory, I am using coinductive type theory, therefore some axioms of set theory are not necessary. Second, by defining subtraction before addition, I can deal with measures like temperatures that do not support addition (this is a very big deal for physicists and statisticians). Third, my real question is related to the values picked for the identity terms: what happens when these values are not $(0, 1)$? Or what happens when you add a third pair of operators with a third identity term (say -1)? Has anyone worked on this yet?
– ismael
59 mins ago
1
I don't understand your first and third points. I think I understand your second point, and I'm suggesting that even though that is fine, it probably amounts to the same thing as addition in the end.
– rschwieb
58 mins ago
I don’t think it does. While you can add a temperature delta to a temperature, you cannot add two temperature. This suggests that the addition operator should not have the cartesian product of the same set as domain, but the cartesian product of a type that does not support addition with a type that does support addition (I’m not sure that talking about cartesian product for types makes perfect sense, but this is a totally different subject). This kind of hybrid domain is not allowed by groups or fields unfortunately...
– ismael
55 mins ago
@ismael I'm not sure I agree with your specific example, that you can't add temperatures, but it sounds like you're talking about the idea of an affine space. Also usually the Cartesian product of types is the type of pairs. E.g., in Haskell notation for algebraic data types, the cartesian product ofa
andb
isPair a b
, wheredata Pair a b = Pair a b
. (Although in Haskell, you would usually just use the built-in type(a,b)
).
– jgon
1 min ago
add a comment |
I think what's going on is this:
Suppose you have any binary relation $star$ making $X$ an abelian group. One way to express the relation is that it is a subset $Ssubseteq (Xtimes X)times X$ where $astar b=c$ iff $((a,b),c)in S$.
You can immediately form a new relation $S'={((c,a),b)mid (a,b,c)in S}$, and that describes a different binary operation. The fact that $S$ was formed from an abelian group operation allows you to say that this actually is a function.
And you can repeat this again to get $S''={((b,c),a)mid (a,b,c)in S}$, but it isn't as obvious that it is a function from it's origin from $S'$, but we can appeal again to $S$ again to prove it is a function.
Repeating the trick a third time gets you back to $S$.
If you take the special case where $star$ is addition, you'll find that $S'$ is subtraction where the thing subtracted is on the right, and $S''$ is like subtraction where the thing subtracted is on the left.
All this means, I think, is that the binary operations for some groups that we are all very familiar with can be translated to this new funky ordering, and because of the group properties contained in $S$, you will have a standard set of properties available in $S'$ (and also perhaps a slightly different set for $S''$, I didn't check).
My gut feeling is that the set of group axioms on $S'$ is equivalent in some sense to the abeilan group axioms encompassed in $S$, so that we really haven't learned anything new, really, we've just rewritten all the addition in terms of subtraction, and all the division in terms of multiplication. It does not feel like there is anything significant in this process.
Well, I am not so sure. First, I am not using set theory, I am using coinductive type theory, therefore some axioms of set theory are not necessary. Second, by defining subtraction before addition, I can deal with measures like temperatures that do not support addition (this is a very big deal for physicists and statisticians). Third, my real question is related to the values picked for the identity terms: what happens when these values are not $(0, 1)$? Or what happens when you add a third pair of operators with a third identity term (say -1)? Has anyone worked on this yet?
– ismael
59 mins ago
1
I don't understand your first and third points. I think I understand your second point, and I'm suggesting that even though that is fine, it probably amounts to the same thing as addition in the end.
– rschwieb
58 mins ago
I don’t think it does. While you can add a temperature delta to a temperature, you cannot add two temperature. This suggests that the addition operator should not have the cartesian product of the same set as domain, but the cartesian product of a type that does not support addition with a type that does support addition (I’m not sure that talking about cartesian product for types makes perfect sense, but this is a totally different subject). This kind of hybrid domain is not allowed by groups or fields unfortunately...
– ismael
55 mins ago
@ismael I'm not sure I agree with your specific example, that you can't add temperatures, but it sounds like you're talking about the idea of an affine space. Also usually the Cartesian product of types is the type of pairs. E.g., in Haskell notation for algebraic data types, the cartesian product ofa
andb
isPair a b
, wheredata Pair a b = Pair a b
. (Although in Haskell, you would usually just use the built-in type(a,b)
).
– jgon
1 min ago
add a comment |
I think what's going on is this:
Suppose you have any binary relation $star$ making $X$ an abelian group. One way to express the relation is that it is a subset $Ssubseteq (Xtimes X)times X$ where $astar b=c$ iff $((a,b),c)in S$.
You can immediately form a new relation $S'={((c,a),b)mid (a,b,c)in S}$, and that describes a different binary operation. The fact that $S$ was formed from an abelian group operation allows you to say that this actually is a function.
And you can repeat this again to get $S''={((b,c),a)mid (a,b,c)in S}$, but it isn't as obvious that it is a function from it's origin from $S'$, but we can appeal again to $S$ again to prove it is a function.
Repeating the trick a third time gets you back to $S$.
If you take the special case where $star$ is addition, you'll find that $S'$ is subtraction where the thing subtracted is on the right, and $S''$ is like subtraction where the thing subtracted is on the left.
All this means, I think, is that the binary operations for some groups that we are all very familiar with can be translated to this new funky ordering, and because of the group properties contained in $S$, you will have a standard set of properties available in $S'$ (and also perhaps a slightly different set for $S''$, I didn't check).
My gut feeling is that the set of group axioms on $S'$ is equivalent in some sense to the abeilan group axioms encompassed in $S$, so that we really haven't learned anything new, really, we've just rewritten all the addition in terms of subtraction, and all the division in terms of multiplication. It does not feel like there is anything significant in this process.
I think what's going on is this:
Suppose you have any binary relation $star$ making $X$ an abelian group. One way to express the relation is that it is a subset $Ssubseteq (Xtimes X)times X$ where $astar b=c$ iff $((a,b),c)in S$.
You can immediately form a new relation $S'={((c,a),b)mid (a,b,c)in S}$, and that describes a different binary operation. The fact that $S$ was formed from an abelian group operation allows you to say that this actually is a function.
And you can repeat this again to get $S''={((b,c),a)mid (a,b,c)in S}$, but it isn't as obvious that it is a function from it's origin from $S'$, but we can appeal again to $S$ again to prove it is a function.
Repeating the trick a third time gets you back to $S$.
If you take the special case where $star$ is addition, you'll find that $S'$ is subtraction where the thing subtracted is on the right, and $S''$ is like subtraction where the thing subtracted is on the left.
All this means, I think, is that the binary operations for some groups that we are all very familiar with can be translated to this new funky ordering, and because of the group properties contained in $S$, you will have a standard set of properties available in $S'$ (and also perhaps a slightly different set for $S''$, I didn't check).
My gut feeling is that the set of group axioms on $S'$ is equivalent in some sense to the abeilan group axioms encompassed in $S$, so that we really haven't learned anything new, really, we've just rewritten all the addition in terms of subtraction, and all the division in terms of multiplication. It does not feel like there is anything significant in this process.
answered 1 hour ago
rschwieb
105k1299244
105k1299244
Well, I am not so sure. First, I am not using set theory, I am using coinductive type theory, therefore some axioms of set theory are not necessary. Second, by defining subtraction before addition, I can deal with measures like temperatures that do not support addition (this is a very big deal for physicists and statisticians). Third, my real question is related to the values picked for the identity terms: what happens when these values are not $(0, 1)$? Or what happens when you add a third pair of operators with a third identity term (say -1)? Has anyone worked on this yet?
– ismael
59 mins ago
1
I don't understand your first and third points. I think I understand your second point, and I'm suggesting that even though that is fine, it probably amounts to the same thing as addition in the end.
– rschwieb
58 mins ago
I don’t think it does. While you can add a temperature delta to a temperature, you cannot add two temperature. This suggests that the addition operator should not have the cartesian product of the same set as domain, but the cartesian product of a type that does not support addition with a type that does support addition (I’m not sure that talking about cartesian product for types makes perfect sense, but this is a totally different subject). This kind of hybrid domain is not allowed by groups or fields unfortunately...
– ismael
55 mins ago
@ismael I'm not sure I agree with your specific example, that you can't add temperatures, but it sounds like you're talking about the idea of an affine space. Also usually the Cartesian product of types is the type of pairs. E.g., in Haskell notation for algebraic data types, the cartesian product ofa
andb
isPair a b
, wheredata Pair a b = Pair a b
. (Although in Haskell, you would usually just use the built-in type(a,b)
).
– jgon
1 min ago
add a comment |
Well, I am not so sure. First, I am not using set theory, I am using coinductive type theory, therefore some axioms of set theory are not necessary. Second, by defining subtraction before addition, I can deal with measures like temperatures that do not support addition (this is a very big deal for physicists and statisticians). Third, my real question is related to the values picked for the identity terms: what happens when these values are not $(0, 1)$? Or what happens when you add a third pair of operators with a third identity term (say -1)? Has anyone worked on this yet?
– ismael
59 mins ago
1
I don't understand your first and third points. I think I understand your second point, and I'm suggesting that even though that is fine, it probably amounts to the same thing as addition in the end.
– rschwieb
58 mins ago
I don’t think it does. While you can add a temperature delta to a temperature, you cannot add two temperature. This suggests that the addition operator should not have the cartesian product of the same set as domain, but the cartesian product of a type that does not support addition with a type that does support addition (I’m not sure that talking about cartesian product for types makes perfect sense, but this is a totally different subject). This kind of hybrid domain is not allowed by groups or fields unfortunately...
– ismael
55 mins ago
@ismael I'm not sure I agree with your specific example, that you can't add temperatures, but it sounds like you're talking about the idea of an affine space. Also usually the Cartesian product of types is the type of pairs. E.g., in Haskell notation for algebraic data types, the cartesian product ofa
andb
isPair a b
, wheredata Pair a b = Pair a b
. (Although in Haskell, you would usually just use the built-in type(a,b)
).
– jgon
1 min ago
Well, I am not so sure. First, I am not using set theory, I am using coinductive type theory, therefore some axioms of set theory are not necessary. Second, by defining subtraction before addition, I can deal with measures like temperatures that do not support addition (this is a very big deal for physicists and statisticians). Third, my real question is related to the values picked for the identity terms: what happens when these values are not $(0, 1)$? Or what happens when you add a third pair of operators with a third identity term (say -1)? Has anyone worked on this yet?
– ismael
59 mins ago
Well, I am not so sure. First, I am not using set theory, I am using coinductive type theory, therefore some axioms of set theory are not necessary. Second, by defining subtraction before addition, I can deal with measures like temperatures that do not support addition (this is a very big deal for physicists and statisticians). Third, my real question is related to the values picked for the identity terms: what happens when these values are not $(0, 1)$? Or what happens when you add a third pair of operators with a third identity term (say -1)? Has anyone worked on this yet?
– ismael
59 mins ago
1
1
I don't understand your first and third points. I think I understand your second point, and I'm suggesting that even though that is fine, it probably amounts to the same thing as addition in the end.
– rschwieb
58 mins ago
I don't understand your first and third points. I think I understand your second point, and I'm suggesting that even though that is fine, it probably amounts to the same thing as addition in the end.
– rschwieb
58 mins ago
I don’t think it does. While you can add a temperature delta to a temperature, you cannot add two temperature. This suggests that the addition operator should not have the cartesian product of the same set as domain, but the cartesian product of a type that does not support addition with a type that does support addition (I’m not sure that talking about cartesian product for types makes perfect sense, but this is a totally different subject). This kind of hybrid domain is not allowed by groups or fields unfortunately...
– ismael
55 mins ago
I don’t think it does. While you can add a temperature delta to a temperature, you cannot add two temperature. This suggests that the addition operator should not have the cartesian product of the same set as domain, but the cartesian product of a type that does not support addition with a type that does support addition (I’m not sure that talking about cartesian product for types makes perfect sense, but this is a totally different subject). This kind of hybrid domain is not allowed by groups or fields unfortunately...
– ismael
55 mins ago
@ismael I'm not sure I agree with your specific example, that you can't add temperatures, but it sounds like you're talking about the idea of an affine space. Also usually the Cartesian product of types is the type of pairs. E.g., in Haskell notation for algebraic data types, the cartesian product of
a
and b
is Pair a b
, where data Pair a b = Pair a b
. (Although in Haskell, you would usually just use the built-in type (a,b)
).– jgon
1 min ago
@ismael I'm not sure I agree with your specific example, that you can't add temperatures, but it sounds like you're talking about the idea of an affine space. Also usually the Cartesian product of types is the type of pairs. E.g., in Haskell notation for algebraic data types, the cartesian product of
a
and b
is Pair a b
, where data Pair a b = Pair a b
. (Although in Haskell, you would usually just use the built-in type (a,b)
).– jgon
1 min ago
add a comment |
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1
There is a mistake in the anticommutativity part for subtraction
– Slugger
1 hour ago
Have you heard of groups?
– jgon
1 hour ago
@Slugger Sorry for the mistake and thanks a lot for the fix!
– ismael
1 hour ago
@ismael No problem! You also say that "the only main difference between them is their identity elements (0 and 1 respectively)", but keep in mind that another significant difference is that multiplicative inverses are not defined for all numbers, i.e., for zero
– Slugger
1 hour ago
@jgon Yes, thank you very much. But this does not really answer my question. Also, I am trying to study these properties without relying on the axioms required for set theory. Therefore, I prefer working with types whenever possible.
– ismael
1 hour ago