Why does turning a MOSFET ON too fast cause ringing?












1














Going though app notes, I can understand that turning it off (i.e. when drain-source voltage is increasing) can cause ringing due to parasitic NPN and also drain-gate capacitor which can charge the gate and turn the MOSFET back on, if the dv/dt is high enough.



But what's the reason behind ringing when turning the MOSFET ON? (i.e. when drain-source voltage is decreasing) How exactly does it happen?



Update:



Could it be that when people refer to ringing when turning on the MOSFET, they refer specifically to half/full bridge, and not a circuit with only a low side MOSFET? (As turning on the high side MOSFET would cause a positive dv/dt on the low side MOSFET.)






mosfet driver ringing







share|improve this question
























  • reference to the original question: electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/414759/…
    – Sudoer
    6 hours ago






  • 2




    Parasitic inductances and capacitances in the loop for one thing.
    – Unimportant
    5 hours ago










  • @Unimportant isn't the loop open when the switch is off? there should be no energy in drain parasitic inductance etc when the switch is off and no current is flowing ... so where does the ringing voltage come from during falling edge of the Vds? (i.e. when the switch is turning on) (if it does as pointed out in the original question)
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago












  • Ringing can mean one thing to one guy and another thing to another guy. Do you have a waveform shot so it rules out speculation?
    – Andy aka
    3 hours ago
















1














Going though app notes, I can understand that turning it off (i.e. when drain-source voltage is increasing) can cause ringing due to parasitic NPN and also drain-gate capacitor which can charge the gate and turn the MOSFET back on, if the dv/dt is high enough.



But what's the reason behind ringing when turning the MOSFET ON? (i.e. when drain-source voltage is decreasing) How exactly does it happen?



Update:



Could it be that when people refer to ringing when turning on the MOSFET, they refer specifically to half/full bridge, and not a circuit with only a low side MOSFET? (As turning on the high side MOSFET would cause a positive dv/dt on the low side MOSFET.)






mosfet driver ringing







share|improve this question
























  • reference to the original question: electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/414759/…
    – Sudoer
    6 hours ago






  • 2




    Parasitic inductances and capacitances in the loop for one thing.
    – Unimportant
    5 hours ago










  • @Unimportant isn't the loop open when the switch is off? there should be no energy in drain parasitic inductance etc when the switch is off and no current is flowing ... so where does the ringing voltage come from during falling edge of the Vds? (i.e. when the switch is turning on) (if it does as pointed out in the original question)
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago












  • Ringing can mean one thing to one guy and another thing to another guy. Do you have a waveform shot so it rules out speculation?
    – Andy aka
    3 hours ago














1












1








1


2





Going though app notes, I can understand that turning it off (i.e. when drain-source voltage is increasing) can cause ringing due to parasitic NPN and also drain-gate capacitor which can charge the gate and turn the MOSFET back on, if the dv/dt is high enough.



But what's the reason behind ringing when turning the MOSFET ON? (i.e. when drain-source voltage is decreasing) How exactly does it happen?



Update:



Could it be that when people refer to ringing when turning on the MOSFET, they refer specifically to half/full bridge, and not a circuit with only a low side MOSFET? (As turning on the high side MOSFET would cause a positive dv/dt on the low side MOSFET.)






mosfet driver ringing







share|improve this question















Going though app notes, I can understand that turning it off (i.e. when drain-source voltage is increasing) can cause ringing due to parasitic NPN and also drain-gate capacitor which can charge the gate and turn the MOSFET back on, if the dv/dt is high enough.



But what's the reason behind ringing when turning the MOSFET ON? (i.e. when drain-source voltage is decreasing) How exactly does it happen?



Update:



Could it be that when people refer to ringing when turning on the MOSFET, they refer specifically to half/full bridge, and not a circuit with only a low side MOSFET? (As turning on the high side MOSFET would cause a positive dv/dt on the low side MOSFET.)






mosfet driver ringing




mosfet driver ringing






share|improve this question















share|improve this question













share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 3 hours ago









JRE

20.7k43768




20.7k43768










asked 6 hours ago









Sudoer

15610




15610












  • reference to the original question: electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/414759/…
    – Sudoer
    6 hours ago






  • 2




    Parasitic inductances and capacitances in the loop for one thing.
    – Unimportant
    5 hours ago










  • @Unimportant isn't the loop open when the switch is off? there should be no energy in drain parasitic inductance etc when the switch is off and no current is flowing ... so where does the ringing voltage come from during falling edge of the Vds? (i.e. when the switch is turning on) (if it does as pointed out in the original question)
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago












  • Ringing can mean one thing to one guy and another thing to another guy. Do you have a waveform shot so it rules out speculation?
    – Andy aka
    3 hours ago


















  • reference to the original question: electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/414759/…
    – Sudoer
    6 hours ago






  • 2




    Parasitic inductances and capacitances in the loop for one thing.
    – Unimportant
    5 hours ago










  • @Unimportant isn't the loop open when the switch is off? there should be no energy in drain parasitic inductance etc when the switch is off and no current is flowing ... so where does the ringing voltage come from during falling edge of the Vds? (i.e. when the switch is turning on) (if it does as pointed out in the original question)
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago












  • Ringing can mean one thing to one guy and another thing to another guy. Do you have a waveform shot so it rules out speculation?
    – Andy aka
    3 hours ago
















reference to the original question: electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/414759/…
– Sudoer
6 hours ago




reference to the original question: electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/414759/…
– Sudoer
6 hours ago




2




2




Parasitic inductances and capacitances in the loop for one thing.
– Unimportant
5 hours ago




Parasitic inductances and capacitances in the loop for one thing.
– Unimportant
5 hours ago












@Unimportant isn't the loop open when the switch is off? there should be no energy in drain parasitic inductance etc when the switch is off and no current is flowing ... so where does the ringing voltage come from during falling edge of the Vds? (i.e. when the switch is turning on) (if it does as pointed out in the original question)
– Sudoer
4 hours ago






@Unimportant isn't the loop open when the switch is off? there should be no energy in drain parasitic inductance etc when the switch is off and no current is flowing ... so where does the ringing voltage come from during falling edge of the Vds? (i.e. when the switch is turning on) (if it does as pointed out in the original question)
– Sudoer
4 hours ago














Ringing can mean one thing to one guy and another thing to another guy. Do you have a waveform shot so it rules out speculation?
– Andy aka
3 hours ago




Ringing can mean one thing to one guy and another thing to another guy. Do you have a waveform shot so it rules out speculation?
– Andy aka
3 hours ago










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















4














Schematic from original question:



enter image description here



Presumably this will be connected to a load, so current will travel in this loop:



GND - Power supply decoupling caps - Load - FET - GND



This loop has inductance due to trace/wire length, and maybe the load has some inductance too. Thus it will form a LC resonant circuit with the FET's parasitic drain-source cap when the FET is OFF, and with the supply decoupling caps when the FET is ON. Both are may ring, at their own resonant frequencies which will most likely not be the same.



Ringing when the FET turns OFF is easy to observe on the drain voltage. Since the capacitance is small, it will usually ring at a high frequency also.



Ringing when it turns ON is not easy to observe as there will be very little voltage swing. That doesn't mean you won't get a ringing current inside the traces/wires, which can couple into other circuits, radiate, or cause unwanted voltage drops on GND. Whether it rings or not depends on damping, if there is enough ESR in the caps, the FET and the load, etc. I think ringing on turn-on should be pretty rare, since it involves the supply caps it would require lots of inductance in the load.



Also, a very important factor is that if the load is connected via wires, you really don't want to have high di/dt in them whether at turn-on or turn-off, as that would make a nice wideband radio jammer. These FET drivers are capable of very fast switching, which is a EMI headache, and slowing the switching to "as fast as you need but not faster" helps.






share|improve this answer























  • I found this app note: "Parasitic Oscillation and Ringing of Power MOSFETs - TOSHIBA Semiconductor" but it only discusses ringing when switching the MOSFET off ... do you of any paper that discusses ringing when you switch the MOSFET on? Thanks
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago










  • Also: isn't the loop open when the switch is off? there should be no energy in drain parasitic inductance etc when the switch is off and no current is flowing ... so where does the ringing voltage come from during falling edge of the Vds? (i.e. when the switch is turning on) (if it does as pointed out in the original question)
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago










  • Could it be that when people refer to ringing when turning on the MOSFET, they refer specifically to half/full bridge, and not a circuit with only a low side MOSFET? (as turning on the high side MOSFET would cause a positive dv/dt on the low side MOSFET)
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago












  • "isn't the loop open when the switch is off" -> if there was current in the loop and the FET turns off, the energy stored in the magnetic field has to go somewhere. Can be a flywheel diode, FET avalanche, or ringing.
    – peufeu
    4 hours ago










  • but my question is about when the switch is currently/previously off and we want to turn it on. when the switch is off there is no current in the loop thus no energy ... isn't that the case?
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago











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1 Answer
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1 Answer
1






active

oldest

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active

oldest

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active

oldest

votes









4














Schematic from original question:



enter image description here



Presumably this will be connected to a load, so current will travel in this loop:



GND - Power supply decoupling caps - Load - FET - GND



This loop has inductance due to trace/wire length, and maybe the load has some inductance too. Thus it will form a LC resonant circuit with the FET's parasitic drain-source cap when the FET is OFF, and with the supply decoupling caps when the FET is ON. Both are may ring, at their own resonant frequencies which will most likely not be the same.



Ringing when the FET turns OFF is easy to observe on the drain voltage. Since the capacitance is small, it will usually ring at a high frequency also.



Ringing when it turns ON is not easy to observe as there will be very little voltage swing. That doesn't mean you won't get a ringing current inside the traces/wires, which can couple into other circuits, radiate, or cause unwanted voltage drops on GND. Whether it rings or not depends on damping, if there is enough ESR in the caps, the FET and the load, etc. I think ringing on turn-on should be pretty rare, since it involves the supply caps it would require lots of inductance in the load.



Also, a very important factor is that if the load is connected via wires, you really don't want to have high di/dt in them whether at turn-on or turn-off, as that would make a nice wideband radio jammer. These FET drivers are capable of very fast switching, which is a EMI headache, and slowing the switching to "as fast as you need but not faster" helps.






share|improve this answer























  • I found this app note: "Parasitic Oscillation and Ringing of Power MOSFETs - TOSHIBA Semiconductor" but it only discusses ringing when switching the MOSFET off ... do you of any paper that discusses ringing when you switch the MOSFET on? Thanks
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago










  • Also: isn't the loop open when the switch is off? there should be no energy in drain parasitic inductance etc when the switch is off and no current is flowing ... so where does the ringing voltage come from during falling edge of the Vds? (i.e. when the switch is turning on) (if it does as pointed out in the original question)
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago










  • Could it be that when people refer to ringing when turning on the MOSFET, they refer specifically to half/full bridge, and not a circuit with only a low side MOSFET? (as turning on the high side MOSFET would cause a positive dv/dt on the low side MOSFET)
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago












  • "isn't the loop open when the switch is off" -> if there was current in the loop and the FET turns off, the energy stored in the magnetic field has to go somewhere. Can be a flywheel diode, FET avalanche, or ringing.
    – peufeu
    4 hours ago










  • but my question is about when the switch is currently/previously off and we want to turn it on. when the switch is off there is no current in the loop thus no energy ... isn't that the case?
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago
















4














Schematic from original question:



enter image description here



Presumably this will be connected to a load, so current will travel in this loop:



GND - Power supply decoupling caps - Load - FET - GND



This loop has inductance due to trace/wire length, and maybe the load has some inductance too. Thus it will form a LC resonant circuit with the FET's parasitic drain-source cap when the FET is OFF, and with the supply decoupling caps when the FET is ON. Both are may ring, at their own resonant frequencies which will most likely not be the same.



Ringing when the FET turns OFF is easy to observe on the drain voltage. Since the capacitance is small, it will usually ring at a high frequency also.



Ringing when it turns ON is not easy to observe as there will be very little voltage swing. That doesn't mean you won't get a ringing current inside the traces/wires, which can couple into other circuits, radiate, or cause unwanted voltage drops on GND. Whether it rings or not depends on damping, if there is enough ESR in the caps, the FET and the load, etc. I think ringing on turn-on should be pretty rare, since it involves the supply caps it would require lots of inductance in the load.



Also, a very important factor is that if the load is connected via wires, you really don't want to have high di/dt in them whether at turn-on or turn-off, as that would make a nice wideband radio jammer. These FET drivers are capable of very fast switching, which is a EMI headache, and slowing the switching to "as fast as you need but not faster" helps.






share|improve this answer























  • I found this app note: "Parasitic Oscillation and Ringing of Power MOSFETs - TOSHIBA Semiconductor" but it only discusses ringing when switching the MOSFET off ... do you of any paper that discusses ringing when you switch the MOSFET on? Thanks
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago










  • Also: isn't the loop open when the switch is off? there should be no energy in drain parasitic inductance etc when the switch is off and no current is flowing ... so where does the ringing voltage come from during falling edge of the Vds? (i.e. when the switch is turning on) (if it does as pointed out in the original question)
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago










  • Could it be that when people refer to ringing when turning on the MOSFET, they refer specifically to half/full bridge, and not a circuit with only a low side MOSFET? (as turning on the high side MOSFET would cause a positive dv/dt on the low side MOSFET)
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago












  • "isn't the loop open when the switch is off" -> if there was current in the loop and the FET turns off, the energy stored in the magnetic field has to go somewhere. Can be a flywheel diode, FET avalanche, or ringing.
    – peufeu
    4 hours ago










  • but my question is about when the switch is currently/previously off and we want to turn it on. when the switch is off there is no current in the loop thus no energy ... isn't that the case?
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago














4












4








4






Schematic from original question:



enter image description here



Presumably this will be connected to a load, so current will travel in this loop:



GND - Power supply decoupling caps - Load - FET - GND



This loop has inductance due to trace/wire length, and maybe the load has some inductance too. Thus it will form a LC resonant circuit with the FET's parasitic drain-source cap when the FET is OFF, and with the supply decoupling caps when the FET is ON. Both are may ring, at their own resonant frequencies which will most likely not be the same.



Ringing when the FET turns OFF is easy to observe on the drain voltage. Since the capacitance is small, it will usually ring at a high frequency also.



Ringing when it turns ON is not easy to observe as there will be very little voltage swing. That doesn't mean you won't get a ringing current inside the traces/wires, which can couple into other circuits, radiate, or cause unwanted voltage drops on GND. Whether it rings or not depends on damping, if there is enough ESR in the caps, the FET and the load, etc. I think ringing on turn-on should be pretty rare, since it involves the supply caps it would require lots of inductance in the load.



Also, a very important factor is that if the load is connected via wires, you really don't want to have high di/dt in them whether at turn-on or turn-off, as that would make a nice wideband radio jammer. These FET drivers are capable of very fast switching, which is a EMI headache, and slowing the switching to "as fast as you need but not faster" helps.






share|improve this answer














Schematic from original question:



enter image description here



Presumably this will be connected to a load, so current will travel in this loop:



GND - Power supply decoupling caps - Load - FET - GND



This loop has inductance due to trace/wire length, and maybe the load has some inductance too. Thus it will form a LC resonant circuit with the FET's parasitic drain-source cap when the FET is OFF, and with the supply decoupling caps when the FET is ON. Both are may ring, at their own resonant frequencies which will most likely not be the same.



Ringing when the FET turns OFF is easy to observe on the drain voltage. Since the capacitance is small, it will usually ring at a high frequency also.



Ringing when it turns ON is not easy to observe as there will be very little voltage swing. That doesn't mean you won't get a ringing current inside the traces/wires, which can couple into other circuits, radiate, or cause unwanted voltage drops on GND. Whether it rings or not depends on damping, if there is enough ESR in the caps, the FET and the load, etc. I think ringing on turn-on should be pretty rare, since it involves the supply caps it would require lots of inductance in the load.



Also, a very important factor is that if the load is connected via wires, you really don't want to have high di/dt in them whether at turn-on or turn-off, as that would make a nice wideband radio jammer. These FET drivers are capable of very fast switching, which is a EMI headache, and slowing the switching to "as fast as you need but not faster" helps.







share|improve this answer














share|improve this answer



share|improve this answer








edited 4 hours ago

























answered 5 hours ago









peufeu

24.8k23972




24.8k23972












  • I found this app note: "Parasitic Oscillation and Ringing of Power MOSFETs - TOSHIBA Semiconductor" but it only discusses ringing when switching the MOSFET off ... do you of any paper that discusses ringing when you switch the MOSFET on? Thanks
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago










  • Also: isn't the loop open when the switch is off? there should be no energy in drain parasitic inductance etc when the switch is off and no current is flowing ... so where does the ringing voltage come from during falling edge of the Vds? (i.e. when the switch is turning on) (if it does as pointed out in the original question)
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago










  • Could it be that when people refer to ringing when turning on the MOSFET, they refer specifically to half/full bridge, and not a circuit with only a low side MOSFET? (as turning on the high side MOSFET would cause a positive dv/dt on the low side MOSFET)
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago












  • "isn't the loop open when the switch is off" -> if there was current in the loop and the FET turns off, the energy stored in the magnetic field has to go somewhere. Can be a flywheel diode, FET avalanche, or ringing.
    – peufeu
    4 hours ago










  • but my question is about when the switch is currently/previously off and we want to turn it on. when the switch is off there is no current in the loop thus no energy ... isn't that the case?
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago


















  • I found this app note: "Parasitic Oscillation and Ringing of Power MOSFETs - TOSHIBA Semiconductor" but it only discusses ringing when switching the MOSFET off ... do you of any paper that discusses ringing when you switch the MOSFET on? Thanks
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago










  • Also: isn't the loop open when the switch is off? there should be no energy in drain parasitic inductance etc when the switch is off and no current is flowing ... so where does the ringing voltage come from during falling edge of the Vds? (i.e. when the switch is turning on) (if it does as pointed out in the original question)
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago










  • Could it be that when people refer to ringing when turning on the MOSFET, they refer specifically to half/full bridge, and not a circuit with only a low side MOSFET? (as turning on the high side MOSFET would cause a positive dv/dt on the low side MOSFET)
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago












  • "isn't the loop open when the switch is off" -> if there was current in the loop and the FET turns off, the energy stored in the magnetic field has to go somewhere. Can be a flywheel diode, FET avalanche, or ringing.
    – peufeu
    4 hours ago










  • but my question is about when the switch is currently/previously off and we want to turn it on. when the switch is off there is no current in the loop thus no energy ... isn't that the case?
    – Sudoer
    4 hours ago
















I found this app note: "Parasitic Oscillation and Ringing of Power MOSFETs - TOSHIBA Semiconductor" but it only discusses ringing when switching the MOSFET off ... do you of any paper that discusses ringing when you switch the MOSFET on? Thanks
– Sudoer
4 hours ago




I found this app note: "Parasitic Oscillation and Ringing of Power MOSFETs - TOSHIBA Semiconductor" but it only discusses ringing when switching the MOSFET off ... do you of any paper that discusses ringing when you switch the MOSFET on? Thanks
– Sudoer
4 hours ago












Also: isn't the loop open when the switch is off? there should be no energy in drain parasitic inductance etc when the switch is off and no current is flowing ... so where does the ringing voltage come from during falling edge of the Vds? (i.e. when the switch is turning on) (if it does as pointed out in the original question)
– Sudoer
4 hours ago




Also: isn't the loop open when the switch is off? there should be no energy in drain parasitic inductance etc when the switch is off and no current is flowing ... so where does the ringing voltage come from during falling edge of the Vds? (i.e. when the switch is turning on) (if it does as pointed out in the original question)
– Sudoer
4 hours ago












Could it be that when people refer to ringing when turning on the MOSFET, they refer specifically to half/full bridge, and not a circuit with only a low side MOSFET? (as turning on the high side MOSFET would cause a positive dv/dt on the low side MOSFET)
– Sudoer
4 hours ago






Could it be that when people refer to ringing when turning on the MOSFET, they refer specifically to half/full bridge, and not a circuit with only a low side MOSFET? (as turning on the high side MOSFET would cause a positive dv/dt on the low side MOSFET)
– Sudoer
4 hours ago














"isn't the loop open when the switch is off" -> if there was current in the loop and the FET turns off, the energy stored in the magnetic field has to go somewhere. Can be a flywheel diode, FET avalanche, or ringing.
– peufeu
4 hours ago




"isn't the loop open when the switch is off" -> if there was current in the loop and the FET turns off, the energy stored in the magnetic field has to go somewhere. Can be a flywheel diode, FET avalanche, or ringing.
– peufeu
4 hours ago












but my question is about when the switch is currently/previously off and we want to turn it on. when the switch is off there is no current in the loop thus no energy ... isn't that the case?
– Sudoer
4 hours ago




but my question is about when the switch is currently/previously off and we want to turn it on. when the switch is off there is no current in the loop thus no energy ... isn't that the case?
– Sudoer
4 hours ago


















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Understanding the information contained in the Deep Space Network XML data?

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up vote 1 down vote favorite NASA's Deep Space Network activity can be viewed conveniently at https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/dsn.html but if you would like data in a more raw XML form, it can be accessed as described in this answer Below is a small Python script that reads the XML into a list of dictionaries, and saves it to disk as a JSON. The dictionaries are organized at the higher level by dish, then by spacecraft per dish. Question: What are the most-likely meanings of all the data field contained in the Deep Space Network XML data? This is the example url from the other answer, used in the script below: https://eyes.nasa.gov/dsn/data/1365107113.xml def dictify(r,root=True): # https://stackoverflow.com/questions/2148119/how-to-convert-an-xml-string-to-a-dictionary-in-python/30923963#30923963 if root: ret
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Ross-on-Wye

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Ross-on-Wye Welsh: Rhosan ar Wy Town centre, looking north from Market House Ross-on-Wye Ross-on-Wye shown within Herefordshire Population 10,700 (2011) [1] OS grid reference SO597241 Unitary authority Herefordshire Ceremonial county Herefordshire Region West Midlands Country England Sovereign state United Kingdom Post town ROSS-ON-WYE Postcode district HR9 Dialling code 01989 Police West Mercia Fire Hereford and Worcester Ambulance West Midlands EU Parliament West Midlands UK Parliament Hereford and South Herefordshire List of places UK England Herefordshire 51°54′50″N 2°35′13″W  /  51.914°N 2.587°W  / 51.914; -2.587 Coordinates: 51°54′50″N 2°35′13″W  /  51.914°N 2.587°W  / 51.914; -2.587 Ross-on-Wye (Welsh: Rhosan ar Wy [2] ) is a small market town with a population of 10,700 (according to the 2011 census), in south eastern Herefordshire, England, located on the River Wye, and on
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Eastern Orthodox Church

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Not to be confused with Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Christianity, or Eastern Catholic Churches. "Eastern Orthodoxy", "Orthodox Church", "Orthodox Catholic Church", and "Orthodox Christian Church" redirect here. For other uses, see Orthodox (disambiguation). This article may be too long to read and navigate comfortably . The readable prose size is 132 kilobytes. Please consider splitting content into sub-articles, condensing it, or adding or removing subheadings. ( January 2018 ) Part of a series on the Eastern Orthodox Church Mosaic of Christ Pantocrator, Hagia Sophia Overview Structure Theology (History of theology) Liturgy Church history Holy Mysteries View of salvation View of Mary View of icons Background Crucifixion / Resurrection / Ascension of Jesus Christianity Christian Church Apostolic succession Four Marks of the Church Orthodoxy Organization Autocephaly Patriarchate
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