A question on dominant morphism of affine schemes












4














Let $A subseteq B$ be a ring extension where $A,B$ are both finitely generated $mathbb C$-domain of the same Krull dimension. Also assume $A$ is regular (i.e. $A_{ mathfrak p}$ is regular local ring for every prime ideal $mathfrak p$ of $A$ ).



If $P$ is a prime ideal of $A$ with finitely many prime ideals of $B$ lying over it , then does there exist $f in A setminus P$ such that every prime ideal of $A_f$ has finitely many prime ideals of $B$ lying over it ?










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  • I am not able to understand where is the dominant morphism of Affine schemes...
    – Praphulla Koushik
    4 hours ago










  • @PraphullaKoushik: just the inclusion $A to B$ ...
    – user521337
    4 hours ago












  • Do you think title can be edited to make it clearer or it is difficult to say this in one line.. I am not questioning anything I am simply asking.. Can you tell how does algebraic geometry tag is relevant here?
    – Praphulla Koushik
    4 hours ago












  • @PraphullaKoushik: In algebraic geometric terms ... let $X,Y$ be integral, finite type, affine $mathbb C$-schemes with $dim X=dim Y$ with $Y$ non-singular, normal. Let $f: X to Y$ be a dominant morphism. Let $U:={yin Y : f^{-1}({y}) $ is finite and non-empty $}$ . Question: Is $U$ open ?
    – user521337
    4 hours ago








  • 2




    This is a duplicate from [mathoverflow.net/questions/193/…
    – Matthieu Romagny
    1 hour ago
















4














Let $A subseteq B$ be a ring extension where $A,B$ are both finitely generated $mathbb C$-domain of the same Krull dimension. Also assume $A$ is regular (i.e. $A_{ mathfrak p}$ is regular local ring for every prime ideal $mathfrak p$ of $A$ ).



If $P$ is a prime ideal of $A$ with finitely many prime ideals of $B$ lying over it , then does there exist $f in A setminus P$ such that every prime ideal of $A_f$ has finitely many prime ideals of $B$ lying over it ?










share|cite|improve this question






















  • I am not able to understand where is the dominant morphism of Affine schemes...
    – Praphulla Koushik
    4 hours ago










  • @PraphullaKoushik: just the inclusion $A to B$ ...
    – user521337
    4 hours ago












  • Do you think title can be edited to make it clearer or it is difficult to say this in one line.. I am not questioning anything I am simply asking.. Can you tell how does algebraic geometry tag is relevant here?
    – Praphulla Koushik
    4 hours ago












  • @PraphullaKoushik: In algebraic geometric terms ... let $X,Y$ be integral, finite type, affine $mathbb C$-schemes with $dim X=dim Y$ with $Y$ non-singular, normal. Let $f: X to Y$ be a dominant morphism. Let $U:={yin Y : f^{-1}({y}) $ is finite and non-empty $}$ . Question: Is $U$ open ?
    – user521337
    4 hours ago








  • 2




    This is a duplicate from [mathoverflow.net/questions/193/…
    – Matthieu Romagny
    1 hour ago














4












4








4







Let $A subseteq B$ be a ring extension where $A,B$ are both finitely generated $mathbb C$-domain of the same Krull dimension. Also assume $A$ is regular (i.e. $A_{ mathfrak p}$ is regular local ring for every prime ideal $mathfrak p$ of $A$ ).



If $P$ is a prime ideal of $A$ with finitely many prime ideals of $B$ lying over it , then does there exist $f in A setminus P$ such that every prime ideal of $A_f$ has finitely many prime ideals of $B$ lying over it ?










share|cite|improve this question













Let $A subseteq B$ be a ring extension where $A,B$ are both finitely generated $mathbb C$-domain of the same Krull dimension. Also assume $A$ is regular (i.e. $A_{ mathfrak p}$ is regular local ring for every prime ideal $mathfrak p$ of $A$ ).



If $P$ is a prime ideal of $A$ with finitely many prime ideals of $B$ lying over it , then does there exist $f in A setminus P$ such that every prime ideal of $A_f$ has finitely many prime ideals of $B$ lying over it ?







ag.algebraic-geometry ac.commutative-algebra dimension-theory






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asked 5 hours ago









user521337

55115




55115












  • I am not able to understand where is the dominant morphism of Affine schemes...
    – Praphulla Koushik
    4 hours ago










  • @PraphullaKoushik: just the inclusion $A to B$ ...
    – user521337
    4 hours ago












  • Do you think title can be edited to make it clearer or it is difficult to say this in one line.. I am not questioning anything I am simply asking.. Can you tell how does algebraic geometry tag is relevant here?
    – Praphulla Koushik
    4 hours ago












  • @PraphullaKoushik: In algebraic geometric terms ... let $X,Y$ be integral, finite type, affine $mathbb C$-schemes with $dim X=dim Y$ with $Y$ non-singular, normal. Let $f: X to Y$ be a dominant morphism. Let $U:={yin Y : f^{-1}({y}) $ is finite and non-empty $}$ . Question: Is $U$ open ?
    – user521337
    4 hours ago








  • 2




    This is a duplicate from [mathoverflow.net/questions/193/…
    – Matthieu Romagny
    1 hour ago


















  • I am not able to understand where is the dominant morphism of Affine schemes...
    – Praphulla Koushik
    4 hours ago










  • @PraphullaKoushik: just the inclusion $A to B$ ...
    – user521337
    4 hours ago












  • Do you think title can be edited to make it clearer or it is difficult to say this in one line.. I am not questioning anything I am simply asking.. Can you tell how does algebraic geometry tag is relevant here?
    – Praphulla Koushik
    4 hours ago












  • @PraphullaKoushik: In algebraic geometric terms ... let $X,Y$ be integral, finite type, affine $mathbb C$-schemes with $dim X=dim Y$ with $Y$ non-singular, normal. Let $f: X to Y$ be a dominant morphism. Let $U:={yin Y : f^{-1}({y}) $ is finite and non-empty $}$ . Question: Is $U$ open ?
    – user521337
    4 hours ago








  • 2




    This is a duplicate from [mathoverflow.net/questions/193/…
    – Matthieu Romagny
    1 hour ago
















I am not able to understand where is the dominant morphism of Affine schemes...
– Praphulla Koushik
4 hours ago




I am not able to understand where is the dominant morphism of Affine schemes...
– Praphulla Koushik
4 hours ago












@PraphullaKoushik: just the inclusion $A to B$ ...
– user521337
4 hours ago






@PraphullaKoushik: just the inclusion $A to B$ ...
– user521337
4 hours ago














Do you think title can be edited to make it clearer or it is difficult to say this in one line.. I am not questioning anything I am simply asking.. Can you tell how does algebraic geometry tag is relevant here?
– Praphulla Koushik
4 hours ago






Do you think title can be edited to make it clearer or it is difficult to say this in one line.. I am not questioning anything I am simply asking.. Can you tell how does algebraic geometry tag is relevant here?
– Praphulla Koushik
4 hours ago














@PraphullaKoushik: In algebraic geometric terms ... let $X,Y$ be integral, finite type, affine $mathbb C$-schemes with $dim X=dim Y$ with $Y$ non-singular, normal. Let $f: X to Y$ be a dominant morphism. Let $U:={yin Y : f^{-1}({y}) $ is finite and non-empty $}$ . Question: Is $U$ open ?
– user521337
4 hours ago






@PraphullaKoushik: In algebraic geometric terms ... let $X,Y$ be integral, finite type, affine $mathbb C$-schemes with $dim X=dim Y$ with $Y$ non-singular, normal. Let $f: X to Y$ be a dominant morphism. Let $U:={yin Y : f^{-1}({y}) $ is finite and non-empty $}$ . Question: Is $U$ open ?
– user521337
4 hours ago






2




2




This is a duplicate from [mathoverflow.net/questions/193/…
– Matthieu Romagny
1 hour ago




This is a duplicate from [mathoverflow.net/questions/193/…
– Matthieu Romagny
1 hour ago










1 Answer
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The comment of @MatthieuRomagny gives a link to some positive answers under additional hypotheses. Nonetheless, the answer is negative without further hypotheses. Here is one counterexample.



Let $k$ be a field, and let $A$ be the polynomial ring $k[s,t,u]$. Let $B$ be the ring $k[x,y,z,w]/langle zw-1 rangle$. Both of these are finitely generated $k$-algebras that are regular, in fact $k$-smooth. Now consider the $k$-algebra homomorphism, $$p:Ato B, p(s) = x(1-x), p(t) = xy, p(u) = z(1-xz).$$ If we invert the element $s$ in $A$ and the image element $x(1-x)$ in $B$, then the induced ring homomorphism is finite and flat of rank $4$. In particular, the localized ring homomorphism is injective. Since the natural map from $A$ to $A[1/s]$ is injective, also $p$ is injective.



Finally, consider the prime ideal $P=langle s,t,urangle$ in $A$. There is precisely one prime lying above this prime, namely $langle x-1,y,z-1,w-1rangle$. However, the prime ideal $Q=langle s,t rangle$ has infinitely many primes lying over it, e.g., $langle x,q(y) rangle$ where $q(y)in k[y]$ is an arbitrary nonzero, noninvertible element that is irreducible. Since $Q$ is contained in $P$, for every $fin Asetminus P$, also $f$ is in $Asetminus Q$. Thus, the ideal $QA_f$ is a prime ideal of $A_f$. So the induced ring homomorphism $A_f to B_{p(f)}$ still admits a prime ideal $QA_f$ that has infinitely many primes lying over it in $B_{p(f)}$.



There is an even easier counterexample if we allow that the set of primes lying over $P=langle s,t,u rangle$ is empty, namely the self-map, $$r:Ato A, r(s) = s, r(t) = st, r(u) = 1-su.$$ This ring homomorphism is even birational.



Please note, there is a partial positive answer in the birational case. Even assuming that $A$ is only normal, the connectedness part of Zariki's Main Theorem implies that if the fiber over $P$ intersects the quasi-finite locus of the morphism inside $text{Spec} B$, then the morphism becomes an isomorphism after inverting some $fin Asetminus P$. Perhaps this is the result that motivated this question. However, the example above shows that this need not be true if the generically finite ring homomorphism is not birational.






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    1 Answer
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    1 Answer
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    active

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    2














    The comment of @MatthieuRomagny gives a link to some positive answers under additional hypotheses. Nonetheless, the answer is negative without further hypotheses. Here is one counterexample.



    Let $k$ be a field, and let $A$ be the polynomial ring $k[s,t,u]$. Let $B$ be the ring $k[x,y,z,w]/langle zw-1 rangle$. Both of these are finitely generated $k$-algebras that are regular, in fact $k$-smooth. Now consider the $k$-algebra homomorphism, $$p:Ato B, p(s) = x(1-x), p(t) = xy, p(u) = z(1-xz).$$ If we invert the element $s$ in $A$ and the image element $x(1-x)$ in $B$, then the induced ring homomorphism is finite and flat of rank $4$. In particular, the localized ring homomorphism is injective. Since the natural map from $A$ to $A[1/s]$ is injective, also $p$ is injective.



    Finally, consider the prime ideal $P=langle s,t,urangle$ in $A$. There is precisely one prime lying above this prime, namely $langle x-1,y,z-1,w-1rangle$. However, the prime ideal $Q=langle s,t rangle$ has infinitely many primes lying over it, e.g., $langle x,q(y) rangle$ where $q(y)in k[y]$ is an arbitrary nonzero, noninvertible element that is irreducible. Since $Q$ is contained in $P$, for every $fin Asetminus P$, also $f$ is in $Asetminus Q$. Thus, the ideal $QA_f$ is a prime ideal of $A_f$. So the induced ring homomorphism $A_f to B_{p(f)}$ still admits a prime ideal $QA_f$ that has infinitely many primes lying over it in $B_{p(f)}$.



    There is an even easier counterexample if we allow that the set of primes lying over $P=langle s,t,u rangle$ is empty, namely the self-map, $$r:Ato A, r(s) = s, r(t) = st, r(u) = 1-su.$$ This ring homomorphism is even birational.



    Please note, there is a partial positive answer in the birational case. Even assuming that $A$ is only normal, the connectedness part of Zariki's Main Theorem implies that if the fiber over $P$ intersects the quasi-finite locus of the morphism inside $text{Spec} B$, then the morphism becomes an isomorphism after inverting some $fin Asetminus P$. Perhaps this is the result that motivated this question. However, the example above shows that this need not be true if the generically finite ring homomorphism is not birational.






    share|cite|improve this answer




























      2














      The comment of @MatthieuRomagny gives a link to some positive answers under additional hypotheses. Nonetheless, the answer is negative without further hypotheses. Here is one counterexample.



      Let $k$ be a field, and let $A$ be the polynomial ring $k[s,t,u]$. Let $B$ be the ring $k[x,y,z,w]/langle zw-1 rangle$. Both of these are finitely generated $k$-algebras that are regular, in fact $k$-smooth. Now consider the $k$-algebra homomorphism, $$p:Ato B, p(s) = x(1-x), p(t) = xy, p(u) = z(1-xz).$$ If we invert the element $s$ in $A$ and the image element $x(1-x)$ in $B$, then the induced ring homomorphism is finite and flat of rank $4$. In particular, the localized ring homomorphism is injective. Since the natural map from $A$ to $A[1/s]$ is injective, also $p$ is injective.



      Finally, consider the prime ideal $P=langle s,t,urangle$ in $A$. There is precisely one prime lying above this prime, namely $langle x-1,y,z-1,w-1rangle$. However, the prime ideal $Q=langle s,t rangle$ has infinitely many primes lying over it, e.g., $langle x,q(y) rangle$ where $q(y)in k[y]$ is an arbitrary nonzero, noninvertible element that is irreducible. Since $Q$ is contained in $P$, for every $fin Asetminus P$, also $f$ is in $Asetminus Q$. Thus, the ideal $QA_f$ is a prime ideal of $A_f$. So the induced ring homomorphism $A_f to B_{p(f)}$ still admits a prime ideal $QA_f$ that has infinitely many primes lying over it in $B_{p(f)}$.



      There is an even easier counterexample if we allow that the set of primes lying over $P=langle s,t,u rangle$ is empty, namely the self-map, $$r:Ato A, r(s) = s, r(t) = st, r(u) = 1-su.$$ This ring homomorphism is even birational.



      Please note, there is a partial positive answer in the birational case. Even assuming that $A$ is only normal, the connectedness part of Zariki's Main Theorem implies that if the fiber over $P$ intersects the quasi-finite locus of the morphism inside $text{Spec} B$, then the morphism becomes an isomorphism after inverting some $fin Asetminus P$. Perhaps this is the result that motivated this question. However, the example above shows that this need not be true if the generically finite ring homomorphism is not birational.






      share|cite|improve this answer


























        2












        2








        2






        The comment of @MatthieuRomagny gives a link to some positive answers under additional hypotheses. Nonetheless, the answer is negative without further hypotheses. Here is one counterexample.



        Let $k$ be a field, and let $A$ be the polynomial ring $k[s,t,u]$. Let $B$ be the ring $k[x,y,z,w]/langle zw-1 rangle$. Both of these are finitely generated $k$-algebras that are regular, in fact $k$-smooth. Now consider the $k$-algebra homomorphism, $$p:Ato B, p(s) = x(1-x), p(t) = xy, p(u) = z(1-xz).$$ If we invert the element $s$ in $A$ and the image element $x(1-x)$ in $B$, then the induced ring homomorphism is finite and flat of rank $4$. In particular, the localized ring homomorphism is injective. Since the natural map from $A$ to $A[1/s]$ is injective, also $p$ is injective.



        Finally, consider the prime ideal $P=langle s,t,urangle$ in $A$. There is precisely one prime lying above this prime, namely $langle x-1,y,z-1,w-1rangle$. However, the prime ideal $Q=langle s,t rangle$ has infinitely many primes lying over it, e.g., $langle x,q(y) rangle$ where $q(y)in k[y]$ is an arbitrary nonzero, noninvertible element that is irreducible. Since $Q$ is contained in $P$, for every $fin Asetminus P$, also $f$ is in $Asetminus Q$. Thus, the ideal $QA_f$ is a prime ideal of $A_f$. So the induced ring homomorphism $A_f to B_{p(f)}$ still admits a prime ideal $QA_f$ that has infinitely many primes lying over it in $B_{p(f)}$.



        There is an even easier counterexample if we allow that the set of primes lying over $P=langle s,t,u rangle$ is empty, namely the self-map, $$r:Ato A, r(s) = s, r(t) = st, r(u) = 1-su.$$ This ring homomorphism is even birational.



        Please note, there is a partial positive answer in the birational case. Even assuming that $A$ is only normal, the connectedness part of Zariki's Main Theorem implies that if the fiber over $P$ intersects the quasi-finite locus of the morphism inside $text{Spec} B$, then the morphism becomes an isomorphism after inverting some $fin Asetminus P$. Perhaps this is the result that motivated this question. However, the example above shows that this need not be true if the generically finite ring homomorphism is not birational.






        share|cite|improve this answer














        The comment of @MatthieuRomagny gives a link to some positive answers under additional hypotheses. Nonetheless, the answer is negative without further hypotheses. Here is one counterexample.



        Let $k$ be a field, and let $A$ be the polynomial ring $k[s,t,u]$. Let $B$ be the ring $k[x,y,z,w]/langle zw-1 rangle$. Both of these are finitely generated $k$-algebras that are regular, in fact $k$-smooth. Now consider the $k$-algebra homomorphism, $$p:Ato B, p(s) = x(1-x), p(t) = xy, p(u) = z(1-xz).$$ If we invert the element $s$ in $A$ and the image element $x(1-x)$ in $B$, then the induced ring homomorphism is finite and flat of rank $4$. In particular, the localized ring homomorphism is injective. Since the natural map from $A$ to $A[1/s]$ is injective, also $p$ is injective.



        Finally, consider the prime ideal $P=langle s,t,urangle$ in $A$. There is precisely one prime lying above this prime, namely $langle x-1,y,z-1,w-1rangle$. However, the prime ideal $Q=langle s,t rangle$ has infinitely many primes lying over it, e.g., $langle x,q(y) rangle$ where $q(y)in k[y]$ is an arbitrary nonzero, noninvertible element that is irreducible. Since $Q$ is contained in $P$, for every $fin Asetminus P$, also $f$ is in $Asetminus Q$. Thus, the ideal $QA_f$ is a prime ideal of $A_f$. So the induced ring homomorphism $A_f to B_{p(f)}$ still admits a prime ideal $QA_f$ that has infinitely many primes lying over it in $B_{p(f)}$.



        There is an even easier counterexample if we allow that the set of primes lying over $P=langle s,t,u rangle$ is empty, namely the self-map, $$r:Ato A, r(s) = s, r(t) = st, r(u) = 1-su.$$ This ring homomorphism is even birational.



        Please note, there is a partial positive answer in the birational case. Even assuming that $A$ is only normal, the connectedness part of Zariki's Main Theorem implies that if the fiber over $P$ intersects the quasi-finite locus of the morphism inside $text{Spec} B$, then the morphism becomes an isomorphism after inverting some $fin Asetminus P$. Perhaps this is the result that motivated this question. However, the example above shows that this need not be true if the generically finite ring homomorphism is not birational.







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