Meaning of “is at two removes”
In the Republic, poetry is condemned and the poets exiled just
because poetry is a successful “imitation.” Imitation is bad for
two reasons. For one thing, it is secondary, derived, not the
real thing. In that sense it is factitious, however accurate it may
be as a copy. A bed, for example, Plato argued, is already an
imitation of the “idea” of a bed, the ideal paradigm from
which each real bed is copied. A painting of a bed or a
description of it in poetry, such as Homer’s description in the
Odyssey of Odysseus’s nuptial bed, with its bedpost made of a
still-rooted olive tree’s trunk, is at two removes. It is a copy of
a copy, so who needs it?
is here "remove" as a noun.and mean: the distance between bedposts? but I don't understand "at two" here.
This passage is from a book named: On literature
This context is about Plato's opinion about poetry.
Correct me if I am wrong.
phrase-meaning sentence-meaning
asked 8 hours ago
Viser Hashemi
1938
add a comment |
In the Republic, poetry is condemned and the poets exiled just
because poetry is a successful “imitation.” Imitation is bad for
two reasons. For one thing, it is secondary, derived, not the
real thing. In that sense it is factitious, however accurate it may
be as a copy. A bed, for example, Plato argued, is already an
imitation of the “idea” of a bed, the ideal paradigm from
which each real bed is copied. A painting of a bed or a
description of it in poetry, such as Homer’s description in the
Odyssey of Odysseus’s nuptial bed, with its bedpost made of a
still-rooted olive tree’s trunk, is at two removes. It is a copy of
a copy, so who needs it?
is here "remove" as a noun.and mean: the distance between bedposts? but I don't understand "at two" here.
This passage is from a book named: On literature
This context is about Plato's opinion about poetry.
Correct me if I am wrong.
phrase-meaning sentence-meaning
asked 8 hours ago
Viser Hashemi
1938
3
Think of it as "two degrees of separation."
– Jason Bassford
8 hours ago
add a comment |
In the Republic, poetry is condemned and the poets exiled just
because poetry is a successful “imitation.” Imitation is bad for
two reasons. For one thing, it is secondary, derived, not the
real thing. In that sense it is factitious, however accurate it may
be as a copy. A bed, for example, Plato argued, is already an
imitation of the “idea” of a bed, the ideal paradigm from
which each real bed is copied. A painting of a bed or a
description of it in poetry, such as Homer’s description in the
Odyssey of Odysseus’s nuptial bed, with its bedpost made of a
still-rooted olive tree’s trunk, is at two removes. It is a copy of
a copy, so who needs it?
is here "remove" as a noun.and mean: the distance between bedposts? but I don't understand "at two" here.
This passage is from a book named: On literature
This context is about Plato's opinion about poetry.
Correct me if I am wrong.
phrase-meaning sentence-meaning
asked 8 hours ago
Viser Hashemi
1938
In the Republic, poetry is condemned and the poets exiled just
because poetry is a successful “imitation.” Imitation is bad for
two reasons. For one thing, it is secondary, derived, not the
real thing. In that sense it is factitious, however accurate it may
be as a copy. A bed, for example, Plato argued, is already an
imitation of the “idea” of a bed, the ideal paradigm from
which each real bed is copied. A painting of a bed or a
description of it in poetry, such as Homer’s description in the
Odyssey of Odysseus’s nuptial bed, with its bedpost made of a
still-rooted olive tree’s trunk, is at two removes. It is a copy of
a copy, so who needs it?
is here "remove" as a noun.and mean: the distance between bedposts? but I don't understand "at two" here.
This passage is from a book named: On literature
This context is about Plato's opinion about poetry.
Correct me if I am wrong.
phrase-meaning sentence-meaning
phrase-meaning sentence-meaning
asked 8 hours ago
Viser Hashemi
1938
asked 8 hours ago
Viser Hashemi
1938
edited 8 hours ago
asked 8 hours ago
Viser Hashemi
1938
asked 8 hours ago
Viser Hashemi
1938
asked 8 hours ago
Viser Hashemi
1938
1938
3
Think of it as "two degrees of separation."
– Jason Bassford
8 hours ago
add a comment |
3
Think of it as "two degrees of separation."
– Jason Bassford
8 hours ago
3
3
Think of it as "two degrees of separation."
– Jason Bassford
8 hours ago
Think of it as "two degrees of separation."
– Jason Bassford
8 hours ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
Yes, "remove" is a noun here, but it is obsolete except in a few special senses, and in this idiom: "at two removes" means "taking two (logical, or notional) steps away from something" - in this case, from the Platonic ideal, to the bed, to the image of a bed.
answered 8 hours ago
Colin Fine
28.2k24055
Many thanks. Do you mean: the bedposts of bed are in two step away from eachother or the bedpost is in two step away from something else which we don't know what it is? and Do you know the meaning of "still-rooted"
– Viser Hashemi
8 hours ago
4
It has nothing whatever to do with the bedposts, @ViserHashemi: it's talking about the conceptual separation from the ideal to the bed, and from the bed to an image of a bed.
– Colin Fine
7 hours ago
The only (barely) common use of "remove" this way is in genealogy. Cousins are said to be so many times "removed" from each other. Each "remov[al]" means their common ancestor is from one more generation previous.
– K.A
2 hours ago
@K.A: yes, but what is used in that case is the participle/adjective "removed", not the noun "remove".
– Colin Fine
1 hour ago
@ColinFine: I can't edit my comment, but I should have written that it is the same idea of "remov[...]" meaning metaphoric and not literal quantified separation distance.
– K.A
21 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
Further to Colin's good answer, consider how the police sketch artists use descriptions provided by witnesses to create the likeness of a suspect, so that they can send out an All Points Bulletin.
Such sketches are at least at one remove from the suspect. They are not a photograph but a drawing based on someone's description.
Now, if for some reason police headquarters does not have the ability to transmit the sketch to a patrol car but must describe the sketch to a police officer over the radio, that verbal description will be at two removes from the suspect:
"A heavy-set bald Caucasian male in his mid forties with a Fu-Manchu mustache, a large amethyst earring in his left ear, and one gold front tooth."
The "remove" or "step" is not an actual physical distance but a logical or conceptual "distance" away from the original. As Colin says, "notional".
answered 7 hours ago
Tᴚoɯɐuo
108k682174
add a comment |
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2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
Yes, "remove" is a noun here, but it is obsolete except in a few special senses, and in this idiom: "at two removes" means "taking two (logical, or notional) steps away from something" - in this case, from the Platonic ideal, to the bed, to the image of a bed.
answered 8 hours ago
Colin Fine
28.2k24055
Many thanks. Do you mean: the bedposts of bed are in two step away from eachother or the bedpost is in two step away from something else which we don't know what it is? and Do you know the meaning of "still-rooted"
– Viser Hashemi
8 hours ago
4
It has nothing whatever to do with the bedposts, @ViserHashemi: it's talking about the conceptual separation from the ideal to the bed, and from the bed to an image of a bed.
– Colin Fine
7 hours ago
The only (barely) common use of "remove" this way is in genealogy. Cousins are said to be so many times "removed" from each other. Each "remov[al]" means their common ancestor is from one more generation previous.
– K.A
2 hours ago
@K.A: yes, but what is used in that case is the participle/adjective "removed", not the noun "remove".
– Colin Fine
1 hour ago
@ColinFine: I can't edit my comment, but I should have written that it is the same idea of "remov[...]" meaning metaphoric and not literal quantified separation distance.
– K.A
21 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
Yes, "remove" is a noun here, but it is obsolete except in a few special senses, and in this idiom: "at two removes" means "taking two (logical, or notional) steps away from something" - in this case, from the Platonic ideal, to the bed, to the image of a bed.
answered 8 hours ago
Colin Fine
28.2k24055
Many thanks. Do you mean: the bedposts of bed are in two step away from eachother or the bedpost is in two step away from something else which we don't know what it is? and Do you know the meaning of "still-rooted"
– Viser Hashemi
8 hours ago
4
It has nothing whatever to do with the bedposts, @ViserHashemi: it's talking about the conceptual separation from the ideal to the bed, and from the bed to an image of a bed.
– Colin Fine
7 hours ago
The only (barely) common use of "remove" this way is in genealogy. Cousins are said to be so many times "removed" from each other. Each "remov[al]" means their common ancestor is from one more generation previous.
– K.A
2 hours ago
@K.A: yes, but what is used in that case is the participle/adjective "removed", not the noun "remove".
– Colin Fine
1 hour ago
@ColinFine: I can't edit my comment, but I should have written that it is the same idea of "remov[...]" meaning metaphoric and not literal quantified separation distance.
– K.A
21 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
Yes, "remove" is a noun here, but it is obsolete except in a few special senses, and in this idiom: "at two removes" means "taking two (logical, or notional) steps away from something" - in this case, from the Platonic ideal, to the bed, to the image of a bed.
answered 8 hours ago
Colin Fine
28.2k24055
Yes, "remove" is a noun here, but it is obsolete except in a few special senses, and in this idiom: "at two removes" means "taking two (logical, or notional) steps away from something" - in this case, from the Platonic ideal, to the bed, to the image of a bed.
answered 8 hours ago
Colin Fine
28.2k24055
answered 8 hours ago
Colin Fine
28.2k24055
answered 8 hours ago
Colin Fine
28.2k24055
answered 8 hours ago
Colin Fine
28.2k24055
28.2k24055
Many thanks. Do you mean: the bedposts of bed are in two step away from eachother or the bedpost is in two step away from something else which we don't know what it is? and Do you know the meaning of "still-rooted"
– Viser Hashemi
8 hours ago
4
It has nothing whatever to do with the bedposts, @ViserHashemi: it's talking about the conceptual separation from the ideal to the bed, and from the bed to an image of a bed.
– Colin Fine
7 hours ago
The only (barely) common use of "remove" this way is in genealogy. Cousins are said to be so many times "removed" from each other. Each "remov[al]" means their common ancestor is from one more generation previous.
– K.A
2 hours ago
@K.A: yes, but what is used in that case is the participle/adjective "removed", not the noun "remove".
– Colin Fine
1 hour ago
@ColinFine: I can't edit my comment, but I should have written that it is the same idea of "remov[...]" meaning metaphoric and not literal quantified separation distance.
– K.A
21 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
Many thanks. Do you mean: the bedposts of bed are in two step away from eachother or the bedpost is in two step away from something else which we don't know what it is? and Do you know the meaning of "still-rooted"
– Viser Hashemi
8 hours ago
4
It has nothing whatever to do with the bedposts, @ViserHashemi: it's talking about the conceptual separation from the ideal to the bed, and from the bed to an image of a bed.
– Colin Fine
7 hours ago
The only (barely) common use of "remove" this way is in genealogy. Cousins are said to be so many times "removed" from each other. Each "remov[al]" means their common ancestor is from one more generation previous.
– K.A
2 hours ago
@K.A: yes, but what is used in that case is the participle/adjective "removed", not the noun "remove".
– Colin Fine
1 hour ago
@ColinFine: I can't edit my comment, but I should have written that it is the same idea of "remov[...]" meaning metaphoric and not literal quantified separation distance.
– K.A
21 mins ago
Many thanks. Do you mean: the bedposts of bed are in two step away from eachother or the bedpost is in two step away from something else which we don't know what it is? and Do you know the meaning of "still-rooted"
– Viser Hashemi
8 hours ago
Many thanks. Do you mean: the bedposts of bed are in two step away from eachother or the bedpost is in two step away from something else which we don't know what it is? and Do you know the meaning of "still-rooted"
– Viser Hashemi
8 hours ago
4
4
It has nothing whatever to do with the bedposts, @ViserHashemi: it's talking about the conceptual separation from the ideal to the bed, and from the bed to an image of a bed.
– Colin Fine
7 hours ago
It has nothing whatever to do with the bedposts, @ViserHashemi: it's talking about the conceptual separation from the ideal to the bed, and from the bed to an image of a bed.
– Colin Fine
7 hours ago
The only (barely) common use of "remove" this way is in genealogy. Cousins are said to be so many times "removed" from each other. Each "remov[al]" means their common ancestor is from one more generation previous.
– K.A
2 hours ago
The only (barely) common use of "remove" this way is in genealogy. Cousins are said to be so many times "removed" from each other. Each "remov[al]" means their common ancestor is from one more generation previous.
– K.A
2 hours ago
@K.A: yes, but what is used in that case is the participle/adjective "removed", not the noun "remove".
– Colin Fine
1 hour ago
@K.A: yes, but what is used in that case is the participle/adjective "removed", not the noun "remove".
– Colin Fine
1 hour ago
@ColinFine: I can't edit my comment, but I should have written that it is the same idea of "remov[...]" meaning metaphoric and not literal quantified separation distance.
– K.A
21 mins ago
@ColinFine: I can't edit my comment, but I should have written that it is the same idea of "remov[...]" meaning metaphoric and not literal quantified separation distance.
– K.A
21 mins ago
|
show 1 more comment
Further to Colin's good answer, consider how the police sketch artists use descriptions provided by witnesses to create the likeness of a suspect, so that they can send out an All Points Bulletin.
Such sketches are at least at one remove from the suspect. They are not a photograph but a drawing based on someone's description.
Now, if for some reason police headquarters does not have the ability to transmit the sketch to a patrol car but must describe the sketch to a police officer over the radio, that verbal description will be at two removes from the suspect:
"A heavy-set bald Caucasian male in his mid forties with a Fu-Manchu mustache, a large amethyst earring in his left ear, and one gold front tooth."
The "remove" or "step" is not an actual physical distance but a logical or conceptual "distance" away from the original. As Colin says, "notional".
answered 7 hours ago
Tᴚoɯɐuo
108k682174
add a comment |
Further to Colin's good answer, consider how the police sketch artists use descriptions provided by witnesses to create the likeness of a suspect, so that they can send out an All Points Bulletin.
Such sketches are at least at one remove from the suspect. They are not a photograph but a drawing based on someone's description.
Now, if for some reason police headquarters does not have the ability to transmit the sketch to a patrol car but must describe the sketch to a police officer over the radio, that verbal description will be at two removes from the suspect:
"A heavy-set bald Caucasian male in his mid forties with a Fu-Manchu mustache, a large amethyst earring in his left ear, and one gold front tooth."
The "remove" or "step" is not an actual physical distance but a logical or conceptual "distance" away from the original. As Colin says, "notional".
answered 7 hours ago
Tᴚoɯɐuo
108k682174
add a comment |
Further to Colin's good answer, consider how the police sketch artists use descriptions provided by witnesses to create the likeness of a suspect, so that they can send out an All Points Bulletin.
Such sketches are at least at one remove from the suspect. They are not a photograph but a drawing based on someone's description.
Now, if for some reason police headquarters does not have the ability to transmit the sketch to a patrol car but must describe the sketch to a police officer over the radio, that verbal description will be at two removes from the suspect:
"A heavy-set bald Caucasian male in his mid forties with a Fu-Manchu mustache, a large amethyst earring in his left ear, and one gold front tooth."
The "remove" or "step" is not an actual physical distance but a logical or conceptual "distance" away from the original. As Colin says, "notional".
answered 7 hours ago
Tᴚoɯɐuo
108k682174
Further to Colin's good answer, consider how the police sketch artists use descriptions provided by witnesses to create the likeness of a suspect, so that they can send out an All Points Bulletin.
Such sketches are at least at one remove from the suspect. They are not a photograph but a drawing based on someone's description.
Now, if for some reason police headquarters does not have the ability to transmit the sketch to a patrol car but must describe the sketch to a police officer over the radio, that verbal description will be at two removes from the suspect:
"A heavy-set bald Caucasian male in his mid forties with a Fu-Manchu mustache, a large amethyst earring in his left ear, and one gold front tooth."
The "remove" or "step" is not an actual physical distance but a logical or conceptual "distance" away from the original. As Colin says, "notional".
answered 7 hours ago
Tᴚoɯɐuo
108k682174
edited 7 hours ago
answered 7 hours ago
Tᴚoɯɐuo
108k682174
answered 7 hours ago
Tᴚoɯɐuo
108k682174
answered 7 hours ago
Tᴚoɯɐuo
108k682174
108k682174
add a comment |
add a comment |
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3
Think of it as "two degrees of separation."
– Jason Bassford
8 hours ago