Why is it easier to design an IIR filter in the continuous time domain than in the discrete time domain?












2














Given that the goal is to approximate the ideal filter with an IIR filter, why would it be easier to design it in the continuous time domain than the discrete?



This paper says:




Discrete
time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been
developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain.




This may be a very trivial question (sorry if it is), but I don't see why it is easier.



Perhaps I could be asking this in a better way:
Why do we need to translate filter specifications from discrete to continuous time and then do the calculations in continuous time? Why not directly in discrete time?










share|improve this question









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epe2308 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • I don't think the claim is true at all – where does that come from?
    – Marcus Müller
    6 hours ago










  • "Discrete time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain." - From the abstract in this publication: ijltet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/46.pdf I've also seen it mentioned other places.
    – epe2308
    6 hours ago












  • I'll very carefully and respectfully point out that the amount of care being put in minimizing redundant sentences and the formatting of lists, hyphens, and even the name of the university put this paper in the mental "least quality publication" bin for me – I still think your question is worthwhile considering, but be aware that you shouldn't be basing your doubts on papers like these. That being said, this paper shows nothing new, but reads like basically an overview over a chapter from a filter design textbook. I'd recommend learning how the direct design methods and the bilinear method …
    – Marcus Müller
    6 hours ago










  • … work and then doing a complexity comparison for the problems you're facing! The questions raised while doing that would probably make this extremely interesting.
    – Marcus Müller
    6 hours ago










  • That's true, I just found a link to be honest. I believe the claim is still valid though, my lecturers have presented that claim too. I'm looking for a more mathematical proof or just some intuition behind the claim.
    – epe2308
    5 hours ago
















2














Given that the goal is to approximate the ideal filter with an IIR filter, why would it be easier to design it in the continuous time domain than the discrete?



This paper says:




Discrete
time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been
developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain.




This may be a very trivial question (sorry if it is), but I don't see why it is easier.



Perhaps I could be asking this in a better way:
Why do we need to translate filter specifications from discrete to continuous time and then do the calculations in continuous time? Why not directly in discrete time?










share|improve this question









New contributor




epe2308 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.




















  • I don't think the claim is true at all – where does that come from?
    – Marcus Müller
    6 hours ago










  • "Discrete time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain." - From the abstract in this publication: ijltet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/46.pdf I've also seen it mentioned other places.
    – epe2308
    6 hours ago












  • I'll very carefully and respectfully point out that the amount of care being put in minimizing redundant sentences and the formatting of lists, hyphens, and even the name of the university put this paper in the mental "least quality publication" bin for me – I still think your question is worthwhile considering, but be aware that you shouldn't be basing your doubts on papers like these. That being said, this paper shows nothing new, but reads like basically an overview over a chapter from a filter design textbook. I'd recommend learning how the direct design methods and the bilinear method …
    – Marcus Müller
    6 hours ago










  • … work and then doing a complexity comparison for the problems you're facing! The questions raised while doing that would probably make this extremely interesting.
    – Marcus Müller
    6 hours ago










  • That's true, I just found a link to be honest. I believe the claim is still valid though, my lecturers have presented that claim too. I'm looking for a more mathematical proof or just some intuition behind the claim.
    – epe2308
    5 hours ago














2












2








2







Given that the goal is to approximate the ideal filter with an IIR filter, why would it be easier to design it in the continuous time domain than the discrete?



This paper says:




Discrete
time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been
developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain.




This may be a very trivial question (sorry if it is), but I don't see why it is easier.



Perhaps I could be asking this in a better way:
Why do we need to translate filter specifications from discrete to continuous time and then do the calculations in continuous time? Why not directly in discrete time?










share|improve this question









New contributor




epe2308 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











Given that the goal is to approximate the ideal filter with an IIR filter, why would it be easier to design it in the continuous time domain than the discrete?



This paper says:




Discrete
time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been
developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain.




This may be a very trivial question (sorry if it is), but I don't see why it is easier.



Perhaps I could be asking this in a better way:
Why do we need to translate filter specifications from discrete to continuous time and then do the calculations in continuous time? Why not directly in discrete time?







filters filter-design infinite-impulse-response






share|improve this question









New contributor




epe2308 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question









New contributor




epe2308 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.









share|improve this question




share|improve this question








edited 1 hour ago





















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asked 6 hours ago









epe2308

112




112




New contributor




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New contributor





epe2308 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






epe2308 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












  • I don't think the claim is true at all – where does that come from?
    – Marcus Müller
    6 hours ago










  • "Discrete time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain." - From the abstract in this publication: ijltet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/46.pdf I've also seen it mentioned other places.
    – epe2308
    6 hours ago












  • I'll very carefully and respectfully point out that the amount of care being put in minimizing redundant sentences and the formatting of lists, hyphens, and even the name of the university put this paper in the mental "least quality publication" bin for me – I still think your question is worthwhile considering, but be aware that you shouldn't be basing your doubts on papers like these. That being said, this paper shows nothing new, but reads like basically an overview over a chapter from a filter design textbook. I'd recommend learning how the direct design methods and the bilinear method …
    – Marcus Müller
    6 hours ago










  • … work and then doing a complexity comparison for the problems you're facing! The questions raised while doing that would probably make this extremely interesting.
    – Marcus Müller
    6 hours ago










  • That's true, I just found a link to be honest. I believe the claim is still valid though, my lecturers have presented that claim too. I'm looking for a more mathematical proof or just some intuition behind the claim.
    – epe2308
    5 hours ago


















  • I don't think the claim is true at all – where does that come from?
    – Marcus Müller
    6 hours ago










  • "Discrete time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain." - From the abstract in this publication: ijltet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/46.pdf I've also seen it mentioned other places.
    – epe2308
    6 hours ago












  • I'll very carefully and respectfully point out that the amount of care being put in minimizing redundant sentences and the formatting of lists, hyphens, and even the name of the university put this paper in the mental "least quality publication" bin for me – I still think your question is worthwhile considering, but be aware that you shouldn't be basing your doubts on papers like these. That being said, this paper shows nothing new, but reads like basically an overview over a chapter from a filter design textbook. I'd recommend learning how the direct design methods and the bilinear method …
    – Marcus Müller
    6 hours ago










  • … work and then doing a complexity comparison for the problems you're facing! The questions raised while doing that would probably make this extremely interesting.
    – Marcus Müller
    6 hours ago










  • That's true, I just found a link to be honest. I believe the claim is still valid though, my lecturers have presented that claim too. I'm looking for a more mathematical proof or just some intuition behind the claim.
    – epe2308
    5 hours ago
















I don't think the claim is true at all – where does that come from?
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago




I don't think the claim is true at all – where does that come from?
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago












"Discrete time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain." - From the abstract in this publication: ijltet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/46.pdf I've also seen it mentioned other places.
– epe2308
6 hours ago






"Discrete time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain." - From the abstract in this publication: ijltet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/46.pdf I've also seen it mentioned other places.
– epe2308
6 hours ago














I'll very carefully and respectfully point out that the amount of care being put in minimizing redundant sentences and the formatting of lists, hyphens, and even the name of the university put this paper in the mental "least quality publication" bin for me – I still think your question is worthwhile considering, but be aware that you shouldn't be basing your doubts on papers like these. That being said, this paper shows nothing new, but reads like basically an overview over a chapter from a filter design textbook. I'd recommend learning how the direct design methods and the bilinear method …
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago




I'll very carefully and respectfully point out that the amount of care being put in minimizing redundant sentences and the formatting of lists, hyphens, and even the name of the university put this paper in the mental "least quality publication" bin for me – I still think your question is worthwhile considering, but be aware that you shouldn't be basing your doubts on papers like these. That being said, this paper shows nothing new, but reads like basically an overview over a chapter from a filter design textbook. I'd recommend learning how the direct design methods and the bilinear method …
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago












… work and then doing a complexity comparison for the problems you're facing! The questions raised while doing that would probably make this extremely interesting.
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago




… work and then doing a complexity comparison for the problems you're facing! The questions raised while doing that would probably make this extremely interesting.
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago












That's true, I just found a link to be honest. I believe the claim is still valid though, my lecturers have presented that claim too. I'm looking for a more mathematical proof or just some intuition behind the claim.
– epe2308
5 hours ago




That's true, I just found a link to be honest. I believe the claim is still valid though, my lecturers have presented that claim too. I'm looking for a more mathematical proof or just some intuition behind the claim.
– epe2308
5 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















3














The term “easy” can mean simply to need less effort but can include cases where an accumulation of prior efforts can be leveraged.



Analog filters have a long history and someone in 1970 who was trained in analog design might consider modifying what they know to build a digital filter as “easier" than using an using an optimization routine written in Fortran running on their IBM mainframe.






share|improve this answer





























    1














    This sounds like a quick conclusion.



    It is true that discrete-time IIR filters are typically designed by transforming continuous-time filters (also valid for actual and used tools, for example MATLAB).



    The research made on continuous-time filters has brought many results and analytical tools to design them efficiently, while the bilinear transform quickly makes them discrete.



    The combination of both makes for a quick and efficient solution, which is used as a base in filter design tools, that also implement a numerical optimization routine to minimize the filter order while keeping it in the specifications.



    Finally, I'll agree with other answers here; the complexity of the procedure may be high, but the computing power available nowadays makes it irrelevant. Least Pth-Norm Optimal IIR Filters are completely designed in the discrete domain (no transformation involved), and have more degrees of freedom than the usual transformed filters.






    share|improve this answer










    New contributor




    draimundo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      0














      There are methods to directly design discrete domain filters, and they are more modern. However, due to the legacy, historically first developed continuous domain filters are still used. They are arguably simpler, but they have significant drawbacks. They are easier, since they do not require extreme knowledge of digital IIR filter design. however, MATLAB, Octave and other DSP software does have enough tools to effectively design discrete IIR filter. Please see the following as a nice introduction to both FIR and IIR design. http://ece390web.groups.et.byu.net/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=filter_design_notes.pdf.
      To summarize: designing in continuous domain first, was easier earlier in time, since the tools for IIR filter design have not been available to the extent that they are available today. At the time, the alternative was to get involved in writing your own IIR filter design software.






      share|improve this answer





















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        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes








        3 Answers
        3






        active

        oldest

        votes









        active

        oldest

        votes






        active

        oldest

        votes









        3














        The term “easy” can mean simply to need less effort but can include cases where an accumulation of prior efforts can be leveraged.



        Analog filters have a long history and someone in 1970 who was trained in analog design might consider modifying what they know to build a digital filter as “easier" than using an using an optimization routine written in Fortran running on their IBM mainframe.






        share|improve this answer


























          3














          The term “easy” can mean simply to need less effort but can include cases where an accumulation of prior efforts can be leveraged.



          Analog filters have a long history and someone in 1970 who was trained in analog design might consider modifying what they know to build a digital filter as “easier" than using an using an optimization routine written in Fortran running on their IBM mainframe.






          share|improve this answer
























            3












            3








            3






            The term “easy” can mean simply to need less effort but can include cases where an accumulation of prior efforts can be leveraged.



            Analog filters have a long history and someone in 1970 who was trained in analog design might consider modifying what they know to build a digital filter as “easier" than using an using an optimization routine written in Fortran running on their IBM mainframe.






            share|improve this answer












            The term “easy” can mean simply to need less effort but can include cases where an accumulation of prior efforts can be leveraged.



            Analog filters have a long history and someone in 1970 who was trained in analog design might consider modifying what they know to build a digital filter as “easier" than using an using an optimization routine written in Fortran running on their IBM mainframe.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 3 hours ago









            Stanley Pawlukiewicz

            6,0132421




            6,0132421























                1














                This sounds like a quick conclusion.



                It is true that discrete-time IIR filters are typically designed by transforming continuous-time filters (also valid for actual and used tools, for example MATLAB).



                The research made on continuous-time filters has brought many results and analytical tools to design them efficiently, while the bilinear transform quickly makes them discrete.



                The combination of both makes for a quick and efficient solution, which is used as a base in filter design tools, that also implement a numerical optimization routine to minimize the filter order while keeping it in the specifications.



                Finally, I'll agree with other answers here; the complexity of the procedure may be high, but the computing power available nowadays makes it irrelevant. Least Pth-Norm Optimal IIR Filters are completely designed in the discrete domain (no transformation involved), and have more degrees of freedom than the usual transformed filters.






                share|improve this answer










                New contributor




                draimundo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                Check out our Code of Conduct.























                  1














                  This sounds like a quick conclusion.



                  It is true that discrete-time IIR filters are typically designed by transforming continuous-time filters (also valid for actual and used tools, for example MATLAB).



                  The research made on continuous-time filters has brought many results and analytical tools to design them efficiently, while the bilinear transform quickly makes them discrete.



                  The combination of both makes for a quick and efficient solution, which is used as a base in filter design tools, that also implement a numerical optimization routine to minimize the filter order while keeping it in the specifications.



                  Finally, I'll agree with other answers here; the complexity of the procedure may be high, but the computing power available nowadays makes it irrelevant. Least Pth-Norm Optimal IIR Filters are completely designed in the discrete domain (no transformation involved), and have more degrees of freedom than the usual transformed filters.






                  share|improve this answer










                  New contributor




                  draimundo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                  Check out our Code of Conduct.





















                    1












                    1








                    1






                    This sounds like a quick conclusion.



                    It is true that discrete-time IIR filters are typically designed by transforming continuous-time filters (also valid for actual and used tools, for example MATLAB).



                    The research made on continuous-time filters has brought many results and analytical tools to design them efficiently, while the bilinear transform quickly makes them discrete.



                    The combination of both makes for a quick and efficient solution, which is used as a base in filter design tools, that also implement a numerical optimization routine to minimize the filter order while keeping it in the specifications.



                    Finally, I'll agree with other answers here; the complexity of the procedure may be high, but the computing power available nowadays makes it irrelevant. Least Pth-Norm Optimal IIR Filters are completely designed in the discrete domain (no transformation involved), and have more degrees of freedom than the usual transformed filters.






                    share|improve this answer










                    New contributor




                    draimundo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                    This sounds like a quick conclusion.



                    It is true that discrete-time IIR filters are typically designed by transforming continuous-time filters (also valid for actual and used tools, for example MATLAB).



                    The research made on continuous-time filters has brought many results and analytical tools to design them efficiently, while the bilinear transform quickly makes them discrete.



                    The combination of both makes for a quick and efficient solution, which is used as a base in filter design tools, that also implement a numerical optimization routine to minimize the filter order while keeping it in the specifications.



                    Finally, I'll agree with other answers here; the complexity of the procedure may be high, but the computing power available nowadays makes it irrelevant. Least Pth-Norm Optimal IIR Filters are completely designed in the discrete domain (no transformation involved), and have more degrees of freedom than the usual transformed filters.







                    share|improve this answer










                    New contributor




                    draimundo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
                    Check out our Code of Conduct.









                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer








                    edited 1 min ago





















                    New contributor




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                    answered 24 mins ago









                    draimundo

                    112




                    112




                    New contributor




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                    New contributor





                    draimundo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                    draimundo is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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                        0














                        There are methods to directly design discrete domain filters, and they are more modern. However, due to the legacy, historically first developed continuous domain filters are still used. They are arguably simpler, but they have significant drawbacks. They are easier, since they do not require extreme knowledge of digital IIR filter design. however, MATLAB, Octave and other DSP software does have enough tools to effectively design discrete IIR filter. Please see the following as a nice introduction to both FIR and IIR design. http://ece390web.groups.et.byu.net/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=filter_design_notes.pdf.
                        To summarize: designing in continuous domain first, was easier earlier in time, since the tools for IIR filter design have not been available to the extent that they are available today. At the time, the alternative was to get involved in writing your own IIR filter design software.






                        share|improve this answer


























                          0














                          There are methods to directly design discrete domain filters, and they are more modern. However, due to the legacy, historically first developed continuous domain filters are still used. They are arguably simpler, but they have significant drawbacks. They are easier, since they do not require extreme knowledge of digital IIR filter design. however, MATLAB, Octave and other DSP software does have enough tools to effectively design discrete IIR filter. Please see the following as a nice introduction to both FIR and IIR design. http://ece390web.groups.et.byu.net/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=filter_design_notes.pdf.
                          To summarize: designing in continuous domain first, was easier earlier in time, since the tools for IIR filter design have not been available to the extent that they are available today. At the time, the alternative was to get involved in writing your own IIR filter design software.






                          share|improve this answer
























                            0












                            0








                            0






                            There are methods to directly design discrete domain filters, and they are more modern. However, due to the legacy, historically first developed continuous domain filters are still used. They are arguably simpler, but they have significant drawbacks. They are easier, since they do not require extreme knowledge of digital IIR filter design. however, MATLAB, Octave and other DSP software does have enough tools to effectively design discrete IIR filter. Please see the following as a nice introduction to both FIR and IIR design. http://ece390web.groups.et.byu.net/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=filter_design_notes.pdf.
                            To summarize: designing in continuous domain first, was easier earlier in time, since the tools for IIR filter design have not been available to the extent that they are available today. At the time, the alternative was to get involved in writing your own IIR filter design software.






                            share|improve this answer












                            There are methods to directly design discrete domain filters, and they are more modern. However, due to the legacy, historically first developed continuous domain filters are still used. They are arguably simpler, but they have significant drawbacks. They are easier, since they do not require extreme knowledge of digital IIR filter design. however, MATLAB, Octave and other DSP software does have enough tools to effectively design discrete IIR filter. Please see the following as a nice introduction to both FIR and IIR design. http://ece390web.groups.et.byu.net/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=filter_design_notes.pdf.
                            To summarize: designing in continuous domain first, was easier earlier in time, since the tools for IIR filter design have not been available to the extent that they are available today. At the time, the alternative was to get involved in writing your own IIR filter design software.







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 14 mins ago









                            VladP

                            23914




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