Why is it easier to design an IIR filter in the continuous time domain than in the discrete time domain?
Given that the goal is to approximate the ideal filter with an IIR filter, why would it be easier to design it in the continuous time domain than the discrete?
This paper says:
Discrete
time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been
developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain.
This may be a very trivial question (sorry if it is), but I don't see why it is easier.
Perhaps I could be asking this in a better way:
Why do we need to translate filter specifications from discrete to continuous time and then do the calculations in continuous time? Why not directly in discrete time?
filters filter-design infinite-impulse-response
New contributor
add a comment |
Given that the goal is to approximate the ideal filter with an IIR filter, why would it be easier to design it in the continuous time domain than the discrete?
This paper says:
Discrete
time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been
developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain.
This may be a very trivial question (sorry if it is), but I don't see why it is easier.
Perhaps I could be asking this in a better way:
Why do we need to translate filter specifications from discrete to continuous time and then do the calculations in continuous time? Why not directly in discrete time?
filters filter-design infinite-impulse-response
New contributor
I don't think the claim is true at all – where does that come from?
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
"Discrete time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain." - From the abstract in this publication: ijltet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/46.pdf I've also seen it mentioned other places.
– epe2308
6 hours ago
I'll very carefully and respectfully point out that the amount of care being put in minimizing redundant sentences and the formatting of lists, hyphens, and even the name of the university put this paper in the mental "least quality publication" bin for me – I still think your question is worthwhile considering, but be aware that you shouldn't be basing your doubts on papers like these. That being said, this paper shows nothing new, but reads like basically an overview over a chapter from a filter design textbook. I'd recommend learning how the direct design methods and the bilinear method …
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
… work and then doing a complexity comparison for the problems you're facing! The questions raised while doing that would probably make this extremely interesting.
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
That's true, I just found a link to be honest. I believe the claim is still valid though, my lecturers have presented that claim too. I'm looking for a more mathematical proof or just some intuition behind the claim.
– epe2308
5 hours ago
add a comment |
Given that the goal is to approximate the ideal filter with an IIR filter, why would it be easier to design it in the continuous time domain than the discrete?
This paper says:
Discrete
time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been
developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain.
This may be a very trivial question (sorry if it is), but I don't see why it is easier.
Perhaps I could be asking this in a better way:
Why do we need to translate filter specifications from discrete to continuous time and then do the calculations in continuous time? Why not directly in discrete time?
filters filter-design infinite-impulse-response
New contributor
Given that the goal is to approximate the ideal filter with an IIR filter, why would it be easier to design it in the continuous time domain than the discrete?
This paper says:
Discrete
time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been
developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain.
This may be a very trivial question (sorry if it is), but I don't see why it is easier.
Perhaps I could be asking this in a better way:
Why do we need to translate filter specifications from discrete to continuous time and then do the calculations in continuous time? Why not directly in discrete time?
filters filter-design infinite-impulse-response
filters filter-design infinite-impulse-response
New contributor
New contributor
edited 1 hour ago
New contributor
asked 6 hours ago
epe2308
112
112
New contributor
New contributor
I don't think the claim is true at all – where does that come from?
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
"Discrete time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain." - From the abstract in this publication: ijltet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/46.pdf I've also seen it mentioned other places.
– epe2308
6 hours ago
I'll very carefully and respectfully point out that the amount of care being put in minimizing redundant sentences and the formatting of lists, hyphens, and even the name of the university put this paper in the mental "least quality publication" bin for me – I still think your question is worthwhile considering, but be aware that you shouldn't be basing your doubts on papers like these. That being said, this paper shows nothing new, but reads like basically an overview over a chapter from a filter design textbook. I'd recommend learning how the direct design methods and the bilinear method …
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
… work and then doing a complexity comparison for the problems you're facing! The questions raised while doing that would probably make this extremely interesting.
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
That's true, I just found a link to be honest. I believe the claim is still valid though, my lecturers have presented that claim too. I'm looking for a more mathematical proof or just some intuition behind the claim.
– epe2308
5 hours ago
add a comment |
I don't think the claim is true at all – where does that come from?
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
"Discrete time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain." - From the abstract in this publication: ijltet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/46.pdf I've also seen it mentioned other places.
– epe2308
6 hours ago
I'll very carefully and respectfully point out that the amount of care being put in minimizing redundant sentences and the formatting of lists, hyphens, and even the name of the university put this paper in the mental "least quality publication" bin for me – I still think your question is worthwhile considering, but be aware that you shouldn't be basing your doubts on papers like these. That being said, this paper shows nothing new, but reads like basically an overview over a chapter from a filter design textbook. I'd recommend learning how the direct design methods and the bilinear method …
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
… work and then doing a complexity comparison for the problems you're facing! The questions raised while doing that would probably make this extremely interesting.
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
That's true, I just found a link to be honest. I believe the claim is still valid though, my lecturers have presented that claim too. I'm looking for a more mathematical proof or just some intuition behind the claim.
– epe2308
5 hours ago
I don't think the claim is true at all – where does that come from?
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
I don't think the claim is true at all – where does that come from?
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
"Discrete time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain." - From the abstract in this publication: ijltet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/46.pdf I've also seen it mentioned other places.
– epe2308
6 hours ago
"Discrete time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain." - From the abstract in this publication: ijltet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/46.pdf I've also seen it mentioned other places.
– epe2308
6 hours ago
I'll very carefully and respectfully point out that the amount of care being put in minimizing redundant sentences and the formatting of lists, hyphens, and even the name of the university put this paper in the mental "least quality publication" bin for me – I still think your question is worthwhile considering, but be aware that you shouldn't be basing your doubts on papers like these. That being said, this paper shows nothing new, but reads like basically an overview over a chapter from a filter design textbook. I'd recommend learning how the direct design methods and the bilinear method …
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
I'll very carefully and respectfully point out that the amount of care being put in minimizing redundant sentences and the formatting of lists, hyphens, and even the name of the university put this paper in the mental "least quality publication" bin for me – I still think your question is worthwhile considering, but be aware that you shouldn't be basing your doubts on papers like these. That being said, this paper shows nothing new, but reads like basically an overview over a chapter from a filter design textbook. I'd recommend learning how the direct design methods and the bilinear method …
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
… work and then doing a complexity comparison for the problems you're facing! The questions raised while doing that would probably make this extremely interesting.
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
… work and then doing a complexity comparison for the problems you're facing! The questions raised while doing that would probably make this extremely interesting.
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
That's true, I just found a link to be honest. I believe the claim is still valid though, my lecturers have presented that claim too. I'm looking for a more mathematical proof or just some intuition behind the claim.
– epe2308
5 hours ago
That's true, I just found a link to be honest. I believe the claim is still valid though, my lecturers have presented that claim too. I'm looking for a more mathematical proof or just some intuition behind the claim.
– epe2308
5 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
The term “easy” can mean simply to need less effort but can include cases where an accumulation of prior efforts can be leveraged.
Analog filters have a long history and someone in 1970 who was trained in analog design might consider modifying what they know to build a digital filter as “easier" than using an using an optimization routine written in Fortran running on their IBM mainframe.
add a comment |
This sounds like a quick conclusion.
It is true that discrete-time IIR filters are typically designed by transforming continuous-time filters (also valid for actual and used tools, for example MATLAB).
The research made on continuous-time filters has brought many results and analytical tools to design them efficiently, while the bilinear transform quickly makes them discrete.
The combination of both makes for a quick and efficient solution, which is used as a base in filter design tools, that also implement a numerical optimization routine to minimize the filter order while keeping it in the specifications.
Finally, I'll agree with other answers here; the complexity of the procedure may be high, but the computing power available nowadays makes it irrelevant. Least Pth-Norm Optimal IIR Filters are completely designed in the discrete domain (no transformation involved), and have more degrees of freedom than the usual transformed filters.
New contributor
add a comment |
There are methods to directly design discrete domain filters, and they are more modern. However, due to the legacy, historically first developed continuous domain filters are still used. They are arguably simpler, but they have significant drawbacks. They are easier, since they do not require extreme knowledge of digital IIR filter design. however, MATLAB, Octave and other DSP software does have enough tools to effectively design discrete IIR filter. Please see the following as a nice introduction to both FIR and IIR design. http://ece390web.groups.et.byu.net/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=filter_design_notes.pdf.
To summarize: designing in continuous domain first, was easier earlier in time, since the tools for IIR filter design have not been available to the extent that they are available today. At the time, the alternative was to get involved in writing your own IIR filter design software.
add a comment |
Your Answer
StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");
StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "295"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);
StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});
function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: false,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: null,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});
}
});
epe2308 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fdsp.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f54601%2fwhy-is-it-easier-to-design-an-iir-filter-in-the-continuous-time-domain-than-in-t%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
The term “easy” can mean simply to need less effort but can include cases where an accumulation of prior efforts can be leveraged.
Analog filters have a long history and someone in 1970 who was trained in analog design might consider modifying what they know to build a digital filter as “easier" than using an using an optimization routine written in Fortran running on their IBM mainframe.
add a comment |
The term “easy” can mean simply to need less effort but can include cases where an accumulation of prior efforts can be leveraged.
Analog filters have a long history and someone in 1970 who was trained in analog design might consider modifying what they know to build a digital filter as “easier" than using an using an optimization routine written in Fortran running on their IBM mainframe.
add a comment |
The term “easy” can mean simply to need less effort but can include cases where an accumulation of prior efforts can be leveraged.
Analog filters have a long history and someone in 1970 who was trained in analog design might consider modifying what they know to build a digital filter as “easier" than using an using an optimization routine written in Fortran running on their IBM mainframe.
The term “easy” can mean simply to need less effort but can include cases where an accumulation of prior efforts can be leveraged.
Analog filters have a long history and someone in 1970 who was trained in analog design might consider modifying what they know to build a digital filter as “easier" than using an using an optimization routine written in Fortran running on their IBM mainframe.
answered 3 hours ago
Stanley Pawlukiewicz
6,0132421
6,0132421
add a comment |
add a comment |
This sounds like a quick conclusion.
It is true that discrete-time IIR filters are typically designed by transforming continuous-time filters (also valid for actual and used tools, for example MATLAB).
The research made on continuous-time filters has brought many results and analytical tools to design them efficiently, while the bilinear transform quickly makes them discrete.
The combination of both makes for a quick and efficient solution, which is used as a base in filter design tools, that also implement a numerical optimization routine to minimize the filter order while keeping it in the specifications.
Finally, I'll agree with other answers here; the complexity of the procedure may be high, but the computing power available nowadays makes it irrelevant. Least Pth-Norm Optimal IIR Filters are completely designed in the discrete domain (no transformation involved), and have more degrees of freedom than the usual transformed filters.
New contributor
add a comment |
This sounds like a quick conclusion.
It is true that discrete-time IIR filters are typically designed by transforming continuous-time filters (also valid for actual and used tools, for example MATLAB).
The research made on continuous-time filters has brought many results and analytical tools to design them efficiently, while the bilinear transform quickly makes them discrete.
The combination of both makes for a quick and efficient solution, which is used as a base in filter design tools, that also implement a numerical optimization routine to minimize the filter order while keeping it in the specifications.
Finally, I'll agree with other answers here; the complexity of the procedure may be high, but the computing power available nowadays makes it irrelevant. Least Pth-Norm Optimal IIR Filters are completely designed in the discrete domain (no transformation involved), and have more degrees of freedom than the usual transformed filters.
New contributor
add a comment |
This sounds like a quick conclusion.
It is true that discrete-time IIR filters are typically designed by transforming continuous-time filters (also valid for actual and used tools, for example MATLAB).
The research made on continuous-time filters has brought many results and analytical tools to design them efficiently, while the bilinear transform quickly makes them discrete.
The combination of both makes for a quick and efficient solution, which is used as a base in filter design tools, that also implement a numerical optimization routine to minimize the filter order while keeping it in the specifications.
Finally, I'll agree with other answers here; the complexity of the procedure may be high, but the computing power available nowadays makes it irrelevant. Least Pth-Norm Optimal IIR Filters are completely designed in the discrete domain (no transformation involved), and have more degrees of freedom than the usual transformed filters.
New contributor
This sounds like a quick conclusion.
It is true that discrete-time IIR filters are typically designed by transforming continuous-time filters (also valid for actual and used tools, for example MATLAB).
The research made on continuous-time filters has brought many results and analytical tools to design them efficiently, while the bilinear transform quickly makes them discrete.
The combination of both makes for a quick and efficient solution, which is used as a base in filter design tools, that also implement a numerical optimization routine to minimize the filter order while keeping it in the specifications.
Finally, I'll agree with other answers here; the complexity of the procedure may be high, but the computing power available nowadays makes it irrelevant. Least Pth-Norm Optimal IIR Filters are completely designed in the discrete domain (no transformation involved), and have more degrees of freedom than the usual transformed filters.
New contributor
edited 1 min ago
New contributor
answered 24 mins ago
draimundo
112
112
New contributor
New contributor
add a comment |
add a comment |
There are methods to directly design discrete domain filters, and they are more modern. However, due to the legacy, historically first developed continuous domain filters are still used. They are arguably simpler, but they have significant drawbacks. They are easier, since they do not require extreme knowledge of digital IIR filter design. however, MATLAB, Octave and other DSP software does have enough tools to effectively design discrete IIR filter. Please see the following as a nice introduction to both FIR and IIR design. http://ece390web.groups.et.byu.net/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=filter_design_notes.pdf.
To summarize: designing in continuous domain first, was easier earlier in time, since the tools for IIR filter design have not been available to the extent that they are available today. At the time, the alternative was to get involved in writing your own IIR filter design software.
add a comment |
There are methods to directly design discrete domain filters, and they are more modern. However, due to the legacy, historically first developed continuous domain filters are still used. They are arguably simpler, but they have significant drawbacks. They are easier, since they do not require extreme knowledge of digital IIR filter design. however, MATLAB, Octave and other DSP software does have enough tools to effectively design discrete IIR filter. Please see the following as a nice introduction to both FIR and IIR design. http://ece390web.groups.et.byu.net/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=filter_design_notes.pdf.
To summarize: designing in continuous domain first, was easier earlier in time, since the tools for IIR filter design have not been available to the extent that they are available today. At the time, the alternative was to get involved in writing your own IIR filter design software.
add a comment |
There are methods to directly design discrete domain filters, and they are more modern. However, due to the legacy, historically first developed continuous domain filters are still used. They are arguably simpler, but they have significant drawbacks. They are easier, since they do not require extreme knowledge of digital IIR filter design. however, MATLAB, Octave and other DSP software does have enough tools to effectively design discrete IIR filter. Please see the following as a nice introduction to both FIR and IIR design. http://ece390web.groups.et.byu.net/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=filter_design_notes.pdf.
To summarize: designing in continuous domain first, was easier earlier in time, since the tools for IIR filter design have not been available to the extent that they are available today. At the time, the alternative was to get involved in writing your own IIR filter design software.
There are methods to directly design discrete domain filters, and they are more modern. However, due to the legacy, historically first developed continuous domain filters are still used. They are arguably simpler, but they have significant drawbacks. They are easier, since they do not require extreme knowledge of digital IIR filter design. however, MATLAB, Octave and other DSP software does have enough tools to effectively design discrete IIR filter. Please see the following as a nice introduction to both FIR and IIR design. http://ece390web.groups.et.byu.net/dokuwiki/lib/exe/fetch.php?media=filter_design_notes.pdf.
To summarize: designing in continuous domain first, was easier earlier in time, since the tools for IIR filter design have not been available to the extent that they are available today. At the time, the alternative was to get involved in writing your own IIR filter design software.
answered 14 mins ago
VladP
23914
23914
add a comment |
add a comment |
epe2308 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
epe2308 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
epe2308 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
epe2308 is a new contributor. Be nice, and check out our Code of Conduct.
Thanks for contributing an answer to Signal Processing Stack Exchange!
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.
Please pay close attention to the following guidance:
- Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!
But avoid …
- Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.
- Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.
To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fdsp.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f54601%2fwhy-is-it-easier-to-design-an-iir-filter-in-the-continuous-time-domain-than-in-t%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Sign up or log in
StackExchange.ready(function () {
StackExchange.helpers.onClickDraftSave('#login-link');
});
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Sign up using Google
Sign up using Facebook
Sign up using Email and Password
Post as a guest
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
Required, but never shown
I don't think the claim is true at all – where does that come from?
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
"Discrete time IIR filter design can be a very complex procedure in discrete time domain. Therefore, transformations have been developed to use well known design methods in continuous time domain." - From the abstract in this publication: ijltet.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/46.pdf I've also seen it mentioned other places.
– epe2308
6 hours ago
I'll very carefully and respectfully point out that the amount of care being put in minimizing redundant sentences and the formatting of lists, hyphens, and even the name of the university put this paper in the mental "least quality publication" bin for me – I still think your question is worthwhile considering, but be aware that you shouldn't be basing your doubts on papers like these. That being said, this paper shows nothing new, but reads like basically an overview over a chapter from a filter design textbook. I'd recommend learning how the direct design methods and the bilinear method …
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
… work and then doing a complexity comparison for the problems you're facing! The questions raised while doing that would probably make this extremely interesting.
– Marcus Müller
6 hours ago
That's true, I just found a link to be honest. I believe the claim is still valid though, my lecturers have presented that claim too. I'm looking for a more mathematical proof or just some intuition behind the claim.
– epe2308
5 hours ago