Copying tapes “back in the day”











up vote
2
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favorite












Back when I had a ZX Spectrum 48K, I had a friend that had a 128K and we would swap games for the weekend from time to time.



We did try and make duplicates of the tapes (yes, I know, but we were ten and had no concept of piracy). I had two of those external 5-1/4 inch-drive sized tape units (this kind of thing). I connected them up and tried to make a copy but they would bum out soon after starting. From memory they would suffer from "flutter", I think it is called, or was it wow (or both).



Strangely I seem to remember being able to make a copy of something I had written in BASIC, saved to tape, duplicated, and then had no problems loading. It may be that it was very short or my bad memory.



Out of interest, if one had access to a good hi-fi unit (I did not) could one actually make a duplicate, or did they have other protecting in place? I note there where some very sophisticated tape units available at the time (or soon after) which I understand could give CD a run for its money (e.g. the Nakamichi Dragon or the Pioneer CT-F1250).



Just for the record, I do not condone any such conduct but, for experimental and interest reasons, I wanted to ask.










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  • That "tape unit" thing is a very typical looking desktop audio recorder from the mid 70s to mid 80s time frame.
    – Solomon Slow
    11 mins ago















up vote
2
down vote

favorite












Back when I had a ZX Spectrum 48K, I had a friend that had a 128K and we would swap games for the weekend from time to time.



We did try and make duplicates of the tapes (yes, I know, but we were ten and had no concept of piracy). I had two of those external 5-1/4 inch-drive sized tape units (this kind of thing). I connected them up and tried to make a copy but they would bum out soon after starting. From memory they would suffer from "flutter", I think it is called, or was it wow (or both).



Strangely I seem to remember being able to make a copy of something I had written in BASIC, saved to tape, duplicated, and then had no problems loading. It may be that it was very short or my bad memory.



Out of interest, if one had access to a good hi-fi unit (I did not) could one actually make a duplicate, or did they have other protecting in place? I note there where some very sophisticated tape units available at the time (or soon after) which I understand could give CD a run for its money (e.g. the Nakamichi Dragon or the Pioneer CT-F1250).



Just for the record, I do not condone any such conduct but, for experimental and interest reasons, I wanted to ask.










share|improve this question









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Recycled Steel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • That "tape unit" thing is a very typical looking desktop audio recorder from the mid 70s to mid 80s time frame.
    – Solomon Slow
    11 mins ago













up vote
2
down vote

favorite









up vote
2
down vote

favorite











Back when I had a ZX Spectrum 48K, I had a friend that had a 128K and we would swap games for the weekend from time to time.



We did try and make duplicates of the tapes (yes, I know, but we were ten and had no concept of piracy). I had two of those external 5-1/4 inch-drive sized tape units (this kind of thing). I connected them up and tried to make a copy but they would bum out soon after starting. From memory they would suffer from "flutter", I think it is called, or was it wow (or both).



Strangely I seem to remember being able to make a copy of something I had written in BASIC, saved to tape, duplicated, and then had no problems loading. It may be that it was very short or my bad memory.



Out of interest, if one had access to a good hi-fi unit (I did not) could one actually make a duplicate, or did they have other protecting in place? I note there where some very sophisticated tape units available at the time (or soon after) which I understand could give CD a run for its money (e.g. the Nakamichi Dragon or the Pioneer CT-F1250).



Just for the record, I do not condone any such conduct but, for experimental and interest reasons, I wanted to ask.










share|improve this question









New contributor




Recycled Steel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.











Back when I had a ZX Spectrum 48K, I had a friend that had a 128K and we would swap games for the weekend from time to time.



We did try and make duplicates of the tapes (yes, I know, but we were ten and had no concept of piracy). I had two of those external 5-1/4 inch-drive sized tape units (this kind of thing). I connected them up and tried to make a copy but they would bum out soon after starting. From memory they would suffer from "flutter", I think it is called, or was it wow (or both).



Strangely I seem to remember being able to make a copy of something I had written in BASIC, saved to tape, duplicated, and then had no problems loading. It may be that it was very short or my bad memory.



Out of interest, if one had access to a good hi-fi unit (I did not) could one actually make a duplicate, or did they have other protecting in place? I note there where some very sophisticated tape units available at the time (or soon after) which I understand could give CD a run for its money (e.g. the Nakamichi Dragon or the Pioneer CT-F1250).



Just for the record, I do not condone any such conduct but, for experimental and interest reasons, I wanted to ask.







cassette-tape 8-bit-microcomputers copy-protection






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Check out our Code of Conduct.











share|improve this question









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edited 1 hour ago









Raffzahn

43.4k599175




43.4k599175






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asked 4 hours ago









Recycled Steel

1111




1111




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New contributor





Recycled Steel is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.






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Check out our Code of Conduct.












  • That "tape unit" thing is a very typical looking desktop audio recorder from the mid 70s to mid 80s time frame.
    – Solomon Slow
    11 mins ago


















  • That "tape unit" thing is a very typical looking desktop audio recorder from the mid 70s to mid 80s time frame.
    – Solomon Slow
    11 mins ago
















That "tape unit" thing is a very typical looking desktop audio recorder from the mid 70s to mid 80s time frame.
– Solomon Slow
11 mins ago




That "tape unit" thing is a very typical looking desktop audio recorder from the mid 70s to mid 80s time frame.
– Solomon Slow
11 mins ago










2 Answers
2






active

oldest

votes

















up vote
1
down vote













It's now well publicized how people used to record programs for their machines, from their radio, which were transmitted by radio-stations .



So maybe you could have played the program on an audio-speaker, and then used the microphone on a cassette-recorder to copy the tape.
That may have bypassed the flutter problem .



What about the volume level when you tried copying, it's an issue for people today, when playing these old tapes to their modern-hardware for emulators etc, or is it vice versa.



Maybe games from shops were stored in a finer-detail-format( or machine-code ? ) to prevent copying, don't know .






share|improve this answer





















  • I know of noone who recorded such programs from any speaker. Everyone I ever met, recording these (it was quite popular in the Netherlands, but as well used in Germany) from radio or TV did always use a cable conection between receiver and recorder.
    – Raffzahn
    3 hours ago










  • Yes, a cable should be used, not a speaker, and volume-level should be the key . When I would look at normal-cassette-tapes playing, I noticed they intermittently made little jumps/shifts while rotating the tape, surprised that programs were not affected. Also noise/static on radio-stations and phone-lines, maybe this was usually not a problem .
    – typingcomputers
    2 hours ago










  • It may be some countries transmitted programs over the airwave, I haven'y heard of that myself. I had the good fortune to grow up in a house with a fairly decent dual-cassette system - just put in the original and copy, press a few buttons, and go. And, of course, this was just to backup my originals for security.
    – paxdiablo
    1 hour ago












  • " I noticed they intermittently made little jumps/shifts while rotating the tape," - that isn't important. The tape speed is set by a capstan rotating against a pinch wheel, with the tape in between. When playing (as opposed to rewinding) there is just a small current through the motor turning one of the tape reels, to take up the slack. The tape reels don't affect the playing speed, unless something isn't working properly.
    – alephzero
    1 hour ago




















up vote
1
down vote













No, you won't need any 'HiFi' like recorders. After all, these were the very same devices you also used to record your own programs and/or data. While copying from recorder to recorder does always carry a loss in quality, this is of no big influence on a first or second degree copy (*1).



The most important factor is volume. It's much the same as when recording and re-reading data. If the level during recording is too high (*2), reading may not work. Just about every computer manual back than included a paragraph or more to explain level setting and how to find the right level during playback.



This is even more important when using just the recorder as level and sensitivity on both sides are an unknown quantity (*3). The output of the source recorder now has to be adjusted that the cassette is played back at a level which, in conjunction with the input sensitivity of the other recorder, places it somewhere in the middle of the road.



So all needed is spending some time adjusting both recorders.



Now, having said this, there are of course ways to improve the signal, and people did spend money to buy such, to make sure copying went well (*4), but for most cases it was waste of money.





P.S.: The drive shown has nothing to do with any PC standard, like 5.25 inch drive bays or alike. It's just an average cassette recorder, like they were ubiquitous back then.





*1 - As in numbers of consecutive copies.



*2 - Or too low, but that's rarely the reason.



*3 - When recording from the computer, the level is (usually) set well within the defined working range for tape recorders. Only when reading back is adjustment needed. Usually, this is done by turning a litle dial next to the ear/line-out plugs.



*4 - Of course, only for archiving purpose, never to duplicate cassette-based software for resale :))






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    2 Answers
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    2 Answers
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    active

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    up vote
    1
    down vote













    It's now well publicized how people used to record programs for their machines, from their radio, which were transmitted by radio-stations .



    So maybe you could have played the program on an audio-speaker, and then used the microphone on a cassette-recorder to copy the tape.
    That may have bypassed the flutter problem .



    What about the volume level when you tried copying, it's an issue for people today, when playing these old tapes to their modern-hardware for emulators etc, or is it vice versa.



    Maybe games from shops were stored in a finer-detail-format( or machine-code ? ) to prevent copying, don't know .






    share|improve this answer





















    • I know of noone who recorded such programs from any speaker. Everyone I ever met, recording these (it was quite popular in the Netherlands, but as well used in Germany) from radio or TV did always use a cable conection between receiver and recorder.
      – Raffzahn
      3 hours ago










    • Yes, a cable should be used, not a speaker, and volume-level should be the key . When I would look at normal-cassette-tapes playing, I noticed they intermittently made little jumps/shifts while rotating the tape, surprised that programs were not affected. Also noise/static on radio-stations and phone-lines, maybe this was usually not a problem .
      – typingcomputers
      2 hours ago










    • It may be some countries transmitted programs over the airwave, I haven'y heard of that myself. I had the good fortune to grow up in a house with a fairly decent dual-cassette system - just put in the original and copy, press a few buttons, and go. And, of course, this was just to backup my originals for security.
      – paxdiablo
      1 hour ago












    • " I noticed they intermittently made little jumps/shifts while rotating the tape," - that isn't important. The tape speed is set by a capstan rotating against a pinch wheel, with the tape in between. When playing (as opposed to rewinding) there is just a small current through the motor turning one of the tape reels, to take up the slack. The tape reels don't affect the playing speed, unless something isn't working properly.
      – alephzero
      1 hour ago

















    up vote
    1
    down vote













    It's now well publicized how people used to record programs for their machines, from their radio, which were transmitted by radio-stations .



    So maybe you could have played the program on an audio-speaker, and then used the microphone on a cassette-recorder to copy the tape.
    That may have bypassed the flutter problem .



    What about the volume level when you tried copying, it's an issue for people today, when playing these old tapes to their modern-hardware for emulators etc, or is it vice versa.



    Maybe games from shops were stored in a finer-detail-format( or machine-code ? ) to prevent copying, don't know .






    share|improve this answer





















    • I know of noone who recorded such programs from any speaker. Everyone I ever met, recording these (it was quite popular in the Netherlands, but as well used in Germany) from radio or TV did always use a cable conection between receiver and recorder.
      – Raffzahn
      3 hours ago










    • Yes, a cable should be used, not a speaker, and volume-level should be the key . When I would look at normal-cassette-tapes playing, I noticed they intermittently made little jumps/shifts while rotating the tape, surprised that programs were not affected. Also noise/static on radio-stations and phone-lines, maybe this was usually not a problem .
      – typingcomputers
      2 hours ago










    • It may be some countries transmitted programs over the airwave, I haven'y heard of that myself. I had the good fortune to grow up in a house with a fairly decent dual-cassette system - just put in the original and copy, press a few buttons, and go. And, of course, this was just to backup my originals for security.
      – paxdiablo
      1 hour ago












    • " I noticed they intermittently made little jumps/shifts while rotating the tape," - that isn't important. The tape speed is set by a capstan rotating against a pinch wheel, with the tape in between. When playing (as opposed to rewinding) there is just a small current through the motor turning one of the tape reels, to take up the slack. The tape reels don't affect the playing speed, unless something isn't working properly.
      – alephzero
      1 hour ago















    up vote
    1
    down vote










    up vote
    1
    down vote









    It's now well publicized how people used to record programs for their machines, from their radio, which were transmitted by radio-stations .



    So maybe you could have played the program on an audio-speaker, and then used the microphone on a cassette-recorder to copy the tape.
    That may have bypassed the flutter problem .



    What about the volume level when you tried copying, it's an issue for people today, when playing these old tapes to their modern-hardware for emulators etc, or is it vice versa.



    Maybe games from shops were stored in a finer-detail-format( or machine-code ? ) to prevent copying, don't know .






    share|improve this answer












    It's now well publicized how people used to record programs for their machines, from their radio, which were transmitted by radio-stations .



    So maybe you could have played the program on an audio-speaker, and then used the microphone on a cassette-recorder to copy the tape.
    That may have bypassed the flutter problem .



    What about the volume level when you tried copying, it's an issue for people today, when playing these old tapes to their modern-hardware for emulators etc, or is it vice versa.



    Maybe games from shops were stored in a finer-detail-format( or machine-code ? ) to prevent copying, don't know .







    share|improve this answer












    share|improve this answer



    share|improve this answer










    answered 3 hours ago









    typingcomputers

    374




    374












    • I know of noone who recorded such programs from any speaker. Everyone I ever met, recording these (it was quite popular in the Netherlands, but as well used in Germany) from radio or TV did always use a cable conection between receiver and recorder.
      – Raffzahn
      3 hours ago










    • Yes, a cable should be used, not a speaker, and volume-level should be the key . When I would look at normal-cassette-tapes playing, I noticed they intermittently made little jumps/shifts while rotating the tape, surprised that programs were not affected. Also noise/static on radio-stations and phone-lines, maybe this was usually not a problem .
      – typingcomputers
      2 hours ago










    • It may be some countries transmitted programs over the airwave, I haven'y heard of that myself. I had the good fortune to grow up in a house with a fairly decent dual-cassette system - just put in the original and copy, press a few buttons, and go. And, of course, this was just to backup my originals for security.
      – paxdiablo
      1 hour ago












    • " I noticed they intermittently made little jumps/shifts while rotating the tape," - that isn't important. The tape speed is set by a capstan rotating against a pinch wheel, with the tape in between. When playing (as opposed to rewinding) there is just a small current through the motor turning one of the tape reels, to take up the slack. The tape reels don't affect the playing speed, unless something isn't working properly.
      – alephzero
      1 hour ago




















    • I know of noone who recorded such programs from any speaker. Everyone I ever met, recording these (it was quite popular in the Netherlands, but as well used in Germany) from radio or TV did always use a cable conection between receiver and recorder.
      – Raffzahn
      3 hours ago










    • Yes, a cable should be used, not a speaker, and volume-level should be the key . When I would look at normal-cassette-tapes playing, I noticed they intermittently made little jumps/shifts while rotating the tape, surprised that programs were not affected. Also noise/static on radio-stations and phone-lines, maybe this was usually not a problem .
      – typingcomputers
      2 hours ago










    • It may be some countries transmitted programs over the airwave, I haven'y heard of that myself. I had the good fortune to grow up in a house with a fairly decent dual-cassette system - just put in the original and copy, press a few buttons, and go. And, of course, this was just to backup my originals for security.
      – paxdiablo
      1 hour ago












    • " I noticed they intermittently made little jumps/shifts while rotating the tape," - that isn't important. The tape speed is set by a capstan rotating against a pinch wheel, with the tape in between. When playing (as opposed to rewinding) there is just a small current through the motor turning one of the tape reels, to take up the slack. The tape reels don't affect the playing speed, unless something isn't working properly.
      – alephzero
      1 hour ago


















    I know of noone who recorded such programs from any speaker. Everyone I ever met, recording these (it was quite popular in the Netherlands, but as well used in Germany) from radio or TV did always use a cable conection between receiver and recorder.
    – Raffzahn
    3 hours ago




    I know of noone who recorded such programs from any speaker. Everyone I ever met, recording these (it was quite popular in the Netherlands, but as well used in Germany) from radio or TV did always use a cable conection between receiver and recorder.
    – Raffzahn
    3 hours ago












    Yes, a cable should be used, not a speaker, and volume-level should be the key . When I would look at normal-cassette-tapes playing, I noticed they intermittently made little jumps/shifts while rotating the tape, surprised that programs were not affected. Also noise/static on radio-stations and phone-lines, maybe this was usually not a problem .
    – typingcomputers
    2 hours ago




    Yes, a cable should be used, not a speaker, and volume-level should be the key . When I would look at normal-cassette-tapes playing, I noticed they intermittently made little jumps/shifts while rotating the tape, surprised that programs were not affected. Also noise/static on radio-stations and phone-lines, maybe this was usually not a problem .
    – typingcomputers
    2 hours ago












    It may be some countries transmitted programs over the airwave, I haven'y heard of that myself. I had the good fortune to grow up in a house with a fairly decent dual-cassette system - just put in the original and copy, press a few buttons, and go. And, of course, this was just to backup my originals for security.
    – paxdiablo
    1 hour ago






    It may be some countries transmitted programs over the airwave, I haven'y heard of that myself. I had the good fortune to grow up in a house with a fairly decent dual-cassette system - just put in the original and copy, press a few buttons, and go. And, of course, this was just to backup my originals for security.
    – paxdiablo
    1 hour ago














    " I noticed they intermittently made little jumps/shifts while rotating the tape," - that isn't important. The tape speed is set by a capstan rotating against a pinch wheel, with the tape in between. When playing (as opposed to rewinding) there is just a small current through the motor turning one of the tape reels, to take up the slack. The tape reels don't affect the playing speed, unless something isn't working properly.
    – alephzero
    1 hour ago






    " I noticed they intermittently made little jumps/shifts while rotating the tape," - that isn't important. The tape speed is set by a capstan rotating against a pinch wheel, with the tape in between. When playing (as opposed to rewinding) there is just a small current through the motor turning one of the tape reels, to take up the slack. The tape reels don't affect the playing speed, unless something isn't working properly.
    – alephzero
    1 hour ago












    up vote
    1
    down vote













    No, you won't need any 'HiFi' like recorders. After all, these were the very same devices you also used to record your own programs and/or data. While copying from recorder to recorder does always carry a loss in quality, this is of no big influence on a first or second degree copy (*1).



    The most important factor is volume. It's much the same as when recording and re-reading data. If the level during recording is too high (*2), reading may not work. Just about every computer manual back than included a paragraph or more to explain level setting and how to find the right level during playback.



    This is even more important when using just the recorder as level and sensitivity on both sides are an unknown quantity (*3). The output of the source recorder now has to be adjusted that the cassette is played back at a level which, in conjunction with the input sensitivity of the other recorder, places it somewhere in the middle of the road.



    So all needed is spending some time adjusting both recorders.



    Now, having said this, there are of course ways to improve the signal, and people did spend money to buy such, to make sure copying went well (*4), but for most cases it was waste of money.





    P.S.: The drive shown has nothing to do with any PC standard, like 5.25 inch drive bays or alike. It's just an average cassette recorder, like they were ubiquitous back then.





    *1 - As in numbers of consecutive copies.



    *2 - Or too low, but that's rarely the reason.



    *3 - When recording from the computer, the level is (usually) set well within the defined working range for tape recorders. Only when reading back is adjustment needed. Usually, this is done by turning a litle dial next to the ear/line-out plugs.



    *4 - Of course, only for archiving purpose, never to duplicate cassette-based software for resale :))






    share|improve this answer



























      up vote
      1
      down vote













      No, you won't need any 'HiFi' like recorders. After all, these were the very same devices you also used to record your own programs and/or data. While copying from recorder to recorder does always carry a loss in quality, this is of no big influence on a first or second degree copy (*1).



      The most important factor is volume. It's much the same as when recording and re-reading data. If the level during recording is too high (*2), reading may not work. Just about every computer manual back than included a paragraph or more to explain level setting and how to find the right level during playback.



      This is even more important when using just the recorder as level and sensitivity on both sides are an unknown quantity (*3). The output of the source recorder now has to be adjusted that the cassette is played back at a level which, in conjunction with the input sensitivity of the other recorder, places it somewhere in the middle of the road.



      So all needed is spending some time adjusting both recorders.



      Now, having said this, there are of course ways to improve the signal, and people did spend money to buy such, to make sure copying went well (*4), but for most cases it was waste of money.





      P.S.: The drive shown has nothing to do with any PC standard, like 5.25 inch drive bays or alike. It's just an average cassette recorder, like they were ubiquitous back then.





      *1 - As in numbers of consecutive copies.



      *2 - Or too low, but that's rarely the reason.



      *3 - When recording from the computer, the level is (usually) set well within the defined working range for tape recorders. Only when reading back is adjustment needed. Usually, this is done by turning a litle dial next to the ear/line-out plugs.



      *4 - Of course, only for archiving purpose, never to duplicate cassette-based software for resale :))






      share|improve this answer

























        up vote
        1
        down vote










        up vote
        1
        down vote









        No, you won't need any 'HiFi' like recorders. After all, these were the very same devices you also used to record your own programs and/or data. While copying from recorder to recorder does always carry a loss in quality, this is of no big influence on a first or second degree copy (*1).



        The most important factor is volume. It's much the same as when recording and re-reading data. If the level during recording is too high (*2), reading may not work. Just about every computer manual back than included a paragraph or more to explain level setting and how to find the right level during playback.



        This is even more important when using just the recorder as level and sensitivity on both sides are an unknown quantity (*3). The output of the source recorder now has to be adjusted that the cassette is played back at a level which, in conjunction with the input sensitivity of the other recorder, places it somewhere in the middle of the road.



        So all needed is spending some time adjusting both recorders.



        Now, having said this, there are of course ways to improve the signal, and people did spend money to buy such, to make sure copying went well (*4), but for most cases it was waste of money.





        P.S.: The drive shown has nothing to do with any PC standard, like 5.25 inch drive bays or alike. It's just an average cassette recorder, like they were ubiquitous back then.





        *1 - As in numbers of consecutive copies.



        *2 - Or too low, but that's rarely the reason.



        *3 - When recording from the computer, the level is (usually) set well within the defined working range for tape recorders. Only when reading back is adjustment needed. Usually, this is done by turning a litle dial next to the ear/line-out plugs.



        *4 - Of course, only for archiving purpose, never to duplicate cassette-based software for resale :))






        share|improve this answer














        No, you won't need any 'HiFi' like recorders. After all, these were the very same devices you also used to record your own programs and/or data. While copying from recorder to recorder does always carry a loss in quality, this is of no big influence on a first or second degree copy (*1).



        The most important factor is volume. It's much the same as when recording and re-reading data. If the level during recording is too high (*2), reading may not work. Just about every computer manual back than included a paragraph or more to explain level setting and how to find the right level during playback.



        This is even more important when using just the recorder as level and sensitivity on both sides are an unknown quantity (*3). The output of the source recorder now has to be adjusted that the cassette is played back at a level which, in conjunction with the input sensitivity of the other recorder, places it somewhere in the middle of the road.



        So all needed is spending some time adjusting both recorders.



        Now, having said this, there are of course ways to improve the signal, and people did spend money to buy such, to make sure copying went well (*4), but for most cases it was waste of money.





        P.S.: The drive shown has nothing to do with any PC standard, like 5.25 inch drive bays or alike. It's just an average cassette recorder, like they were ubiquitous back then.





        *1 - As in numbers of consecutive copies.



        *2 - Or too low, but that's rarely the reason.



        *3 - When recording from the computer, the level is (usually) set well within the defined working range for tape recorders. Only when reading back is adjustment needed. Usually, this is done by turning a litle dial next to the ear/line-out plugs.



        *4 - Of course, only for archiving purpose, never to duplicate cassette-based software for resale :))







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        edited 1 hour ago

























        answered 3 hours ago









        Raffzahn

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